Cigna’s Consumer Transformation – How a Payer Drove Next Best Actions

Webinar

Featuring

Cigna

Description

True or False: The leading and largest payers have always acted on sophisticated analytics.


FALSE


Transforming into a consumer friendly, data-driven organization is a JOURNEY. Aaron Bigman, who’s grown analytics efforts at both Capital One and Cigna, will walk us through these steps and challenges.


If you're focused on consumer and digital transformation in healthcare, you'll learn the following:

  • Finding the right focus: Identifying the best path for your patients, members, and providers
  • Getting data-driven initiatives started
  • Keeping these initiatives growing, proving results to leadership

Aaron Bigman

Aaron Bigman

Business Strategy Lead Individual Medical (previously)
CIGNA Healthcare

Cigna

Chris Hemphill

VP, Applied AI & Growth
Actium Health

Frank Jackson

Frank Jackson

GM - Payer
Actium Health

1

Transcript

Chris Hemphill:
Hello Healthcare. All right, everybody, we are now live. We've noticed that there's been a pretty significant number of folks logging onto this and we're really excited to share a story that I think a lot of people are interested in. What we're going to be focused on today is Cigna's digital transformation, so the overall transformation from where they were in the past into a more consumer oriented organization. So this is a little bit different than the typical subjects that we've focused on because it's mostly been in the provider market so far, but today we'll be focusing on the payer market for a lot of reasons, especially as we have more payvider organizations and more value-based contracts, there's a strong intersection from the types of consumer experiences in healthcare on both sides.

Chris Hemphill:
So we want to dig in deeper on that and we also want to provide a good story, some good concepts that you might be able to use to drive the type of change that you want within your own organization. So to help us do that, on our side, on the Actium Health side, we have Frank Jackson who is our GM of payer relations. Frank-

Frank Jackson:
Good to be with everyone.

Chris Hemphill:
Cool.

Frank Jackson:
Yeah, it's good to be with everyone.

Chris Hemphill:
So Frank comes to us having led payer strategy at many organizations, including most recently Wolters Kluwer Health. So really excited to have Frank on and fill in the gaps of knowledge. I don't know as much about the payer market as you, Frank. So I'm looking forward to how this interaction goes as we learn more from Aaron who has a really exciting background. We're really happy to bring this to you.

Chris Hemphill:
But Aaron, he started out, well, he spent a lot of time in the finance industry within Capital One. And when you hear a lot about how people want to bring the experiences of finance and the consumer experience that we see in banking retail, et cetera, into healthcare, Aaron actually represents that. And for everybody that's looking to drive that kind of change, we're going to get deep into his story. So Aaron, just wanted to give you a chance for a quick hello too.

Aaron Bigman:
Thank you. Yes. Thanks. Thanks. Nice to see everybody and looking forward to today.

Chris Hemphill:
Excellent. Well, appreciate that, Aaron. And let's go on ahead and get started. Let's just dig into ... I wanted to just get some context and some basics laid down. So Aaron, could you talk about-

Aaron Bigman:
Sure.

Chris Hemphill:
I talked about the intersection between finance and healthcare, could you talk about your background and what you're up to?

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah, happy to, and I'll try to be succinct, if not brief. So I am retired. I retired from Cigna in May, and prior to that, I was there for 11 years and had another 20 some years in financial services. So I guess my longevity, my experience is more relevant to that segment. And I'm a statistician by training and I consider myself a statistician. I'm not sure what a data scientist actually is, but I'm a statistician. And it might surprise people, it surprises me that I actually have two ... I'm a co-author on two patents on statistical techniques that I couldn't even allege to describe to any of you right now. I don't even remember what they were, but they were all related to my tenure at Capital One. And I think what's common across the years that I worked is that it's all been in D2C, direct to consumer, or B2C businesses, whichever works for you all.

Aaron Bigman:
And to jump in Chris, if I can, my starting point here, and when I was talking to Chris and Frank, is that as I reflect back on all those years, and there's been many, I continue to think that there's a material opportunity, not a small one, but a material one to understand for health plans how we can better engage individuals and influence their behavior towards specific outcomes that are in the mutual interest, to say. So I think about engagement and I think about influence as related, you have to have engagement to have influence.

Aaron Bigman:
So if I break that down, and I'll try to be brief here, engagement is more than transactional. Engagement is not sending out EOBs, it's not even sending out welcome kits to some degree. Engagement has to be built around something of relevance to the individual, to the consumer. And that's the way, that's the key in my mind to drive behavior changes, and not just behavior changes ... I'm not talking about smoking cessation. I'm talking about out the willingness of a consumer to perceive a health plan as a participant in one's health and wellness. Simply that, so let's not set the bar super high.

Aaron Bigman:
And you can ask what are the types of behaviors? If we're going to do engagement, what are the types of behaviors that we're going to try and would like to influence? Well, you probably on this call know better than I. I mean, if you're an MA or a ACA plan, as I worked in at Cigna, we were trying to close HEDIS and QRS gaps. That's a behavior that we're trying to influence. We're trying to get a certain set of people in the denominator, for these metrics, in for care to close that gap, which improves their outcome and improves our relevance and our ability to position our products.

Aaron Bigman:
Behavior could also be participating in a disease management program or if you're on the commercial side and if you're a health plan that sells the DM programs to employer groups, engagement, sustainable engagement is key because that's what makes it work. How do we engage individuals to participate in a diabetes management plan or a hypertension management plan or a weight loss program or whatever it might be? It also can be influencing decisions and behaviors around whether or not an individual's going to lapse or retain the plan or buy an upsell product.

Aaron Bigman:
So there's a broad set of behaviors that I think we want to try to influence. I would represent to you all that engagement is the way into that. And I think what we at Capital One called the right offer to the right consumer at the right time, it's also called in more current parlance next best action. So that's where the next best action comes in to help us sort through what are those behaviors that we should influence, what's the top one that we want to drive, be it closing a HEDIS gap or retention in a health plan.

Aaron Bigman:
It might help if I can ... Chris mentioned the story piece. I tend to tell stories all the time and I'll tell you a little story about Capital One, hopefully, to try to illustrate these points when I was there. So at Capital One we have, and most credit cards have a process called credit line increase. And that's essentially when somebody needs or wants an increase to the balance on their credit card. They're looking to buy a refrigerator or make a purchase and they don't have sufficient balance on their card and they're going to petition the credit card company, the card issuer for a balance increase.

Aaron Bigman:
And back in the early days, I had the opportunity to work at Capital One very early on, we saw this very transactionally, we saw it as a risk mitigation exercise. I was a risk analyst as a statistician and you would call up and it would be like going into the DMV for a driver's license test, if you gave them one wrong answer, you were out. And you'd call up a number and they'd ask you a set of questions and they'd run some numbers and they'd come back and say, either yes, we can give you the increase, no we can't, or three, we can give you part of it, but at a higher credit line. It was very transactional. That was pretty much it.

Aaron Bigman:
And at the same time we were running these customer surveys as any good B2C company does, customer satisfaction surveys and the answers that we were getting back is when we asked people what they thought about Capital One, they'd say, I hate those guys. They always call me when I owe them money. That was the prevailing sentiment. And then we'd say, well, what do you think about Visa? And they'd say, I love visa, they know me to spend. But the bank, Capital One, those are the guys that always call me and ask for money. And it was true, when you called us up for any type of thing, the first thing we did was tell you your balance and what you owed us.

Aaron Bigman:
So we thought about that and said, let's try to change the paradigm here. And essentially what we did was we looked at the credit line increase request, which would come in through a number of channels. I mean, this is many years ago. You could do it online at the time, you could do it through an inbound phone call or you could write a letter if you wanted. And we looked at that as a way to engage consumers around something of relevance to them, which was, I'll use a broad term, their financial health and wellness, enabling them to have more financial liquidity to buy and purchase the things that they needed for their families.

Aaron Bigman:
And we changed the dialogue, so when somebody called up to request a credit line increase, the first thing they heard was something like, do you know that the best way to improve your credit and increase your credit line is by improving your credit score, we can help you do that. Press one to hear how. And we did this consistently. We tested this in all different shapes and sizes as Capital One did and continues to do, and found that this changed that underlying dynamic, where individuals who were calling for a credit line increase would press one to hear how we could help them improve their credit scores, and by the way, sign up for a credit monitoring product at $9 and 99 cents a month.

Aaron Bigman:
So in that was two things, one building out a engagement that had some level of relevance to a consumer, and also, by the way, building up a cross sell business. But the net was that we were able to figure out, statistically, and that was my job, who we should issue these credit lines to. We improved our performance, our financial performance, we reduced our loss ratios and we also started to build relationships where consumers knew that we were helping them establish, monitor, and maintain their credit histories and their credit scores. So I'll stop at that point. Hopefully that makes some sense to y'all and I'll leave it there for now

Chris Hemphill:
I-

Frank Jackson:
Well-

Chris Hemphill:
Oh, go ahead, Frank.

Frank Jackson:
Quick question, Aaron. Why has it been traditionally difficult to take some of the mindset things that have been successful in financial services and apply it to healthcare and specifically health insurance?

Aaron Bigman:
That's a great question and I don't think there's a simple answer, or I don't know the answer. I don't really have an answer for that. I don't understand the reasons why it hasn't been, because what I've heard is well, there's compliance things, well, financial service has compliance things. Well, they're national ... well, there's large financial companies that do a ... So I really haven't heard a compelling argument that I would use to answer your question

Chris Hemphill:
And I would echo that question. It's a good question to ask, because it represents, well, if ... You just outlined a journey of Capital One's transformation into thinking about how do we actually engage people from a consumer's perspective. So what's exciting about that is the folks that are saying that it's extremely hard in healthcare because it's highly regulated, and all these other challenges, well, there's stories now in finance that we can look to where 20 years ago, they were suffering from the same challenges, how do we consumer driven, how do we get data driven and there's answers to that, it's not something impossible. So the more examples, because honestly, in healthcare, often we're going to end up following the herd, but it's beautiful to see these examples being developed. And-

Aaron Bigman:
So-

Chris Hemphill:
Oh, go ahead.

Aaron Bigman:
No, I'm sorry. I think that's right. So I can offer one thing that might or might not make sense to people in the call is that I think in financial services, it's usually a bilateral relationship between a consumer and a bank. In healthcare, that's not the case, as we know. There's the health plan, there's the providers, there's the consumers, there's other intermediaries. And I think, Frank, my answer to your question is probably that, that there just seems to be more stakeholders that are involved than what you might have, certainly in consumer financial services where it's pretty much you and your bank. You don't have employer groups for the most part sponsoring mortgages. And that's a crazy example, but you don't have all the intermediaries. You know what I'm saying? And I think maybe that's the reason and that's a legitimate reason.

Chris Hemphill:
Maybe we can attack this from the perspective of where Cigna was when you had entered and that story of how they became a more consumer focused organization. So really just from the basics, like when we talk about their transformation into a consumer organization back in 2011 when you were just starting, what was the state of affairs?

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah, it's a good question. I'm not the one ... One, I'm retired, two, I didn't have full purview obviously of a company the size of a Cigna, so I'll speak from my own experience, not from a corporate perspective. But what I can say is that when I joined, and this is in 2010, if I compare it to Capital One, we did not, for example, look at, analyze demographic consumer data on our members, even for our individual plans. So for Capital One, we were very much into building personas, profiles, whatever term you'd like to use and we were heavy users of marketing data, marketing demographics. We built any number, thousands of propensity models using that information to predict consumer behaviors. That was not a part of what I joined when I joined a health plan in 2010.

Aaron Bigman:
The other element is that if you think about the mechanisms of engagement, at Capital One we exploited every and all mechanism, including inbound calls. So inbound calls was actually our key source of generating potential engagements with our cardholders and that's people who'd call for credit line increases, they'd call to check their balance, they'd call, they had question on their statement, they wanted a new card for their daughter. There was any number of inbound calls that we used to leverage.

Aaron Bigman:
So the difference again, when I joined the health plan in 2010, is that there was not the mechanisms nor the infrastructure in place, nor the thinking of leveraging all available touch points for generating these engagement opportunities.

Chris Hemphill:
And when it came to looking at this challenge, looking at well, hey, I understand from my previous work about this particular touchpoint, how did you start getting the organization to start thinking about those challenges and leveraging those touch points?

Aaron Bigman:
It's challenging. Let me just stay with the inbound call. So the inbound call is coming into call centers, and you can imagine at health plans, and I'm advising a health plan now and I can't even put zeros around the number of inbound calls that they get on a daily basis, the focus on cost management, average handle time, these types of metrics is critical to their success. It's hard to introduce a different way of thinking that in addition to being measured on customer satisfaction, average handle time, call completion and the like, that we're also going to throw in engagement as another metric. It's just a difficult concept to introduce I think, from what I've seen.

Chris Hemphill:
And I guess when we think about engagement as a metric, were there some other ... I know that when you went into Cigna, there was a look at axiom data, as well as other types of data. Just curious about what engagement meant to the organization at the time.

Aaron Bigman:
At that time?

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah.

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah. It's an interesting question. I think it was probably more linear along, obviously depending on the type lines of business, we had multiple different lines of insurance. I would probably say in response that it was more along minimizing complaints, again, from a compliance perspective, given the compliance concerns, legitimate compliance issues around health plans, minimizing complaints. And I continue to hear this in some of the advisory work that I've been doing that that's the key, we can't afford, rightfully so, to have complaint logs and DOI issues and the like.

Chris Hemphill:
So-

Frank Jackson:
[crosstalk 00:19:29]-

Chris Hemphill:
Oh, go ahead.

Frank Jackson:
Aaron, real quick, what was some of the turning points, or how long did the journey take to go from this transactional mindset and metrics like handle time to more next best actions and engagements worth something and loyalty or customer lifetime value, that mindset? How long did it take? And you're going to get this probably into your story, but part of it is, and correct me I'm wrong, it was more of a mindset shift, like at Capital One, right? And maybe you could just talk about that.

Aaron Bigman:
Well, again, I'm not probably the best person to judge this from a overall Cigna perspective, because my purview was in one of the smaller lines of business. My Take, again, my personal view, reflecting on the 11 years I was there is that it's certainly still a work in process.

Chris Hemphill:
And so Aaron, one of the interesting lines of conversation that's gotten sparked in the comments is around that, the complexity of healthcare incentives being something that is a barrier to the kind of consumer focused thinking that we're seeing being more heavily adopted in finance. One example, Caty Jennerjohn Wolf talked about the fact that, hey, the metrics that you're looking at, the different things that you might be targeting within healthcare is a more complex system. So I guess with-

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah, but I would ask is increasing enrollment in a diabetes disease management program that much more complex? I mean, if that's the metric, where you have many health plans that are selling, this is across the board, selling disease management programs across a variety of different chronic conditions to consumers. So if I set a goal of I want 30% participation of all the known diabetics for company X, my client, if I want to get them into my disease management program, is that more complex than the credit line increase example that I gave? I wouldn't think so. I mean, what's complex about that?

Chris Hemphill:
And that drives a really interesting point too, if we think about, hey, if we narrow it down to a specific target such as diabetes management program or bariatrics program or what have you, there's so many complex needs, hundreds and hundreds of different services-

Aaron Bigman:
What's complex about getting individuals in for HEDIS screenings? What's complex about getting somebody in for a colorectal cancer screen, if they're in the denominator? I don't know, it doesn't seem that complex.

Chris Hemphill:
So I think that the way we look at it, why one might say that the metrics that we're chasing are complex, there's individual needs such as understanding who should come in for these programs or who that outreach or engagement should be towards. And we have a network of all these simple measures that we're trying to prioritize and then it becomes a question of I have hundreds and hundreds of different services, how do I match them appropriately?

Aaron Bigman:
What I've seen is that plans tend to be very good at that insight. I mean, we knew exactly by name and address who had a HEDIS gap, we knew. We had the analytics, we had the data around that. The gap was that we just didn't know how best to engage that individual and get that gap closed through the one or more mechanisms that we had.

Aaron Bigman:
So I think plans that I've seen have gotten to a fairly good state in being able to identify. It's not that we don't know who's subject to any given HEDIS metric. We do know, we do know by name and address. The question is, how do we think about that engagement to get that gap closed? That's what I'm saying. I hear your point and I think if you break it down, again, I might be taking the more simpler metrics, but these are important metrics. And these are also, by the way, that you improve outcomes and improve the strength of any given health plan. So I don't think they're trivial.

Chris Hemphill:
And honestly, I think that by taking a view, taking the metrics and rather than being intimidated by the number of different matches and different things that we have to do, by looking at it one by one then it introduces really a refreshing simplicity. So when we're focused on the actions that it took, there's a whole slew of people that are making predictions and identifying who has risk and need for what very noted on that. So curious about the steps on identifying, okay, I know that this person needs to come in for this service, I know that this person needs to come in for HEDIS measures, et cetera, what were some of the ways that you identified the right engagement paths for these people?

Aaron Bigman:
So that's where the next best action and there's two elements of that. So one is how do you prioritize what the next best action needs to be. And I'm using the example of a HEDIS gap, because I'm sure that's probably a clear example to use and a timely example because it runs on a particular calendar cycle. And chances are, what I found interesting is that we're trying to figure out how to reach that individual that has that HEDIS gap, at the same time when we check the customer call logs, they called the call center twice over the last three months. So how do we make that connection?

Aaron Bigman:
And that's where next best action ties in and some level of infrastructure and technology to say, okay we've got this known individual who has a gap, he or she has called us twice over the last three months, we have other methods of communicating with that individual in addition to inbound calls, we've got outbound communications, we've got provider connections, we've got social media, we've got web, we've got all types of things. How do we then leverage that to get that connection made and to get that gap closed?

Chris Hemphill:
And in that insight gathering, did you find that, hey, we're identifying who's coming into the call center and who's making these calls, did you find that there were different paths? Or like-
Aaron Bigman:
Yeah.

Chris Hemphill:
What were some of the incentives that you would put to get people to act?

Aaron Bigman:
I missed the last point. I thought you were asking about, did we ... You can be somewhat predictive about this. So usually inbound calls happen as a result of specific actions that we, as health plans are aware of. So you can even be somewhat predictive about who's going to call and almost when they're going to call. Again, in response to the question on complexity, I think there are signals that exist within health plans. Utilization's a signal, claims are a signal. There's signals that exist within health plans that can be, I'll use the word better utilized to help us with this challenge, and certainly it's a challenge. But I think the start is to identify how can we corral, how can we organize these signals that are being sent to help us mobilize ourselves around engagement and being able to influence behaviors.

Chris Hemphill:
So as you mobilize these programs and started using next best actions, reacting to these signals, which, that's exciting to hear, hey, what are the signals and then start acting on them, what were the ways that somebody could be looking at the results and not really understand? Or-

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah.

Chris Hemphill:
So how did you get management and leadership to then invest more in these approaches and think more towards this direction?

Aaron Bigman:
So, I think there's obviously a data analytics piece, which is key here, and I think the plans that I've been exposed to do a fairly good job of this in understanding, for example, we had some insights around individuals that had a higher propensity to lapse from a plan had in fact certain utilization patterns. And when we saw these patterns, we would do various levels of engagement to try to raise the perception of value in the plan. So that's the type of analysis that one can do with the data and signals available to make those types of decisions.

Aaron Bigman:
So the next best action when that individual contacted us, or we contacted them more likely is to say, hey, do you understand that your plan offers this, this, this, and this? You have free preventive visits that you haven't taken advantage of. You have free flu shots. You can do this, this, and this. And that's the type of structure that we put in place, and I'm sure other plans have put in place as well, to try to raise that bar.

Chris Hemphill:
And by putting that structure in place was there then a question of, well, now that we've implemented these measures, now that we're talking to people about the things that are going to be relevant to them, were there any measures or metrics that then moved up accordingly that you were communicating throughout the organization at the time?
Aaron Bigman:
Yeah. I think it's the ones that you would expect. So certainly I use, again, the example that I've used earlier, closing HEDIS gaps is critical. So we would show how HEDIS gaps, QRS gaps were being closed. There's certainly broader metrics around customer satisfaction, NPS, there's other metrics, so there's a whole set. But what I think has always been more tangible for me is to show the direct result relative to did we reduce lapsation on this plan, did we increase gap closures, or reduce gap closures, did we improve preventive visits, did we do the types of things that we saw the opportunity to do.

Chris Hemphill:
Oh, go ahead.

Aaron Bigman:
No, no.

Chris Hemphill:
Okay. Yeah. So when we think about these measures, implementing our next best actions, and then seeing utilization improve in those areas, it makes me wonder about maybe if you have some perspective on folks who are earlier on in that journey that want to move to this analytic space, they're enthusiastic about the data, but just not necessarily sure about how to push it in their organizations. Do you have any thoughts on getting started?

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah. The first thing I think is to be persistent. So two things. One, be persistent, and two, as much as possible, ground yourselves in the data and signals that are being sent. Because I think at the end of the day, everybody accepts the truth, everybody accepts the evidence that one can bring forth, because the gaps that we're talking about are so critical to the success of a health plan and to the health and wellness of its members. So again, be persistent, I think is the key, and ground, to all degree possible, in the data signals and analytics around that to build the case. And that makes it unassailable. I mean, these cases have to be unassailable to be successful. And when you look at a plan that you can see star ratings, that's unassailable. If I think back, if I had two things, those would be the two.

Chris Hemphill:
Sounds powerful, build the unassailable case. And Frank, curious about your perspective as well as far as people wanting to start data or consumer driven initiatives. Are there some thoughts that you might have on helping to propagate those through an organization?

Frank Jackson:
Yeah, I would encourage people to just get started, just get started. And so the program that Aaron was talking about at Cigna that evolved over whatever the 10 year journey, 11 year journey is great, but a lot of plans are smaller, maybe they don't have as much resources. And I would say, just get a program going where you're communicating to your members, you're prioritizing that communication. And start modest and just ... Maybe it is care gaps, maybe it is just consolidating into next best actions and not trying to maybe get a sophisticated data analytic solution. But just start modest and start communicating on the things that are important to you and then you could grow it. But just start modest, don't try to boil the ocean in the beginning, but just start communicating.

Frank Jackson:
And start changing your mindset that loyalty and building member lifetime value that you see in other industries can happen. I do see a lot of surveys that members are very open to having payers engage with them. And so even though there's a lot of differences and maybe you're not quite as transactional or in some ways there's more players is I think there's a real hole in the market for payers to step into and begin engaging differently and building loyalty like you see in other industries.

Chris Hemphill:
So I have to echo that, any project that starts off huge, well, like, Frank, when you said start modest, if you start too big and are focused on, again, we were talking about the complexity of going after many different metrics at the same time, well, by building something that has to be resilient to all of those systems at the same time you take something that could have been, if it would've taken three months to come up with something for one metric, you're multiplying that by up to years, depending on how much, if you're trying to bite off too big a piece of the pie. Aaron, it does lead to another question though-

Aaron Bigman:
Sure.

Chris Hemphill:
... because there could be a situation where, okay, I've developed these metrics, I've developed these measures and things like that, that I considered unassailable, but then I start encountering organizational resistance or people start questioning what my team is putting forward. Just curious on any kind of advice that you have on working with naysayers and dealing with organizational resistance.

Aaron Bigman:
It's pretty much the same. So I think it's grit persistency, and again, making the arguments and the hypotheses unassailable, testing them out and demonstrating the data, because that's all you have to stand on, that's the foundation, right? If you don't have the data or the insight base and you can't quantify the opportunity, there isn't an opportunity to be had. So I think a lot of it is just the blocking and tackling. And it's heavy lifting.

Aaron Bigman:
The data that I had experience with, with health plans is hard to manage. Again, I'm a statistician by training, I probably spent 70% of my professional career manipulating data, writing code because of the complexities and differences and nuances around the data that we have in healthcare, but it's what you got to do. And at the end of the day, to Frank's point, set the goals that are meaningful and achievable, and not to use that expression that you're boiling the ocean.

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah. Excellent thoughts. And one thing that really does is sometimes, well, we encounter some resistance and then we want to blame the person who's doing the resisting, but sometimes ... Exactly, yeah ... sometimes it can be us. Sometimes it is really a flaw in our use cases and our assumptions and we have to be just as willing to take ourselves to task as we are to take those others.

Chris Hemphill:
With that, we are a little bit over time and I appreciate everybody who's stayed on with us today. It's been a really interesting conversation. And Frank and Aaron, I just wanted to ask about any final thoughts you might have to help guide people into the weekends. We know that the folks in this audience have brought up some really good points about accuracy in data and the building blocks to building up these types of approaches. Any final thoughts that you want folks to take away as they go into the weekend?

Aaron Bigman:
Yeah. I have a thought that hopefully will make sense. And when I think back about my experience in health plans and in financial services, I mean, certainly health plans, I think is more, I don't know the right word, it's more admirable. I mean, it's a real mission. Improving the health and wellness of a population down to its individuals, to me is a greater mission than credit card increases, line increases. So I think yes, there is complexity, but I think we actually have, I really believe we actually have a greater, broader mission to solve for, one that can be of greater benefit to us as a society, as a country, as a nation. So it might sound trite or trivial, but hey, I mean, it's game on here and it's a serious game with people's health and wellness.

Chris Hemphill:
And Frank, any final thoughts from you?

Frank Jackson:
No, I just echo something that Aaron said, and that is that we have people in payers solving individual problems, whether it's identifying things, identifying gaps, identifying pop health issues. I think what we need to do in the payer is take control of the member engagement part of all that, and let them identify it, but have an enterprise approach towards next best actions and prioritizing that member engagement so we can be successful at it in the health insurance field.

Chris Hemphill:
Well, thank you both for shedding a lot of light here. It's been an exciting conversation. One thing I wanted to let everybody in the audience know too, and wow, we had a lot of engagement, lots of questions from the audience that was exciting too. If somebody said something that resonated with you in the audience, just build up a community here. If somebody said something you support, like them, follow them on LinkedIn, or what have you. We're all here to build each other up. So it's not just about folks coming in and following Hello Healthcare, Actium Health, but it's about creating a network within this too, especially since we couldn't do this live at a conference.

Chris Hemphill:
With that, we appreciate everybody for hopping on with us and sharing some time with us on Hello Healthcare at Actium. If you're interested in keeping up with these types of topics and these types of leaders, we actually have a podcast that you can listen to on the go. So anywhere where you're getting your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, what have you, feel free to pop that on and put us in your eardrums, we'd love to be there.

Chris Hemphill:
On top of that, we'll be at HCIC in Las Vegas next week. So come see us there too. In partnership with HonorHealth, we'll be speaking on patient engagement, artificial intelligence in cardiology, and we'll also be leading a couple of sessions in the round table. So keep an eye out for us there too. But with that, we appreciate everybody. Thank you. And super excited ... Aaron, I don't know if you can see all the comments, but everybody's super excited about the conversation and insights you gave.

Aaron Bigman:
Thank you. I enjoyed it.

Frank Jackson:
Thank you. Appreciate it.
 

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