The pressing question on the minds of healthcare leaders is whether marketing is a mere cost center or a revenue powerhouse? With the increasing pressure to deliver high-quality care while simultaneously cutting costs and maintaining profitability, it is more critical than ever for healthcare marketers to show ROI and downstream revenue.
Join Otto Angulo, Senior Director Digital Marketing at Mount Sinai Health System, and podcast host, Alan Tam, as they explore the undeniable impact of healthcare marketing in driving revenue growth, improving patient experiences, and solidifying a health system’s competitive edge.
This conversation is brought to you by Actium Health in partnership with the Healthcare Internet Conference.
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Senior Director Digital Marketing
Mount Sinai Health System
Chief Marketing Officer
Otto Angulo (00:00):
You get the data that gives you some insight. You think that’s the right thing, but it’s like everything. It’s like, you got to get the right recipe. The first time… I was in a conference last weekend. Someone was like, “Yeah, we’re always making cookies.” And I was like, “What are you talking about? Are you talking about the cookies are going away?” “No, no, no. We’re all making cookies. And the first time we make the recipe, we burn the cookies.” And so it’s not about always having that perfect cookie. You’re learning every day, with what you do.
Alan Tam (00:41):
Hello Healthcare. Today, I’m excited to be joined by Otto Angulo from Mount Sinai. Otto’s been leading the efforts at Mount Sinai on patient engagement, brand reach, and in general, connecting with healthcare consumers. Otto’s the senior director of digital marketing at Mount Sinai. And leading these charges is not an easy process. Healthcare consumers today are much more savvy, and much more technical than ever before. They’re accustomed to content and messaging that’s personalized for them, across channels, across mediums, and across their lifestyle. So I’d like to welcome Otto to Hello Healthcare today. Otto.
Otto Angulo (01:20):
Hi, Alan. Thank you for having me here, and happy to have a conversation with you, and take you through some of our experiences and things that we’ve been doing at Mount Sinai that help with those issues, or concerns that are happening. It’s just an extremely changing environment right now. And it’s not just about healthcare in a science… It’s about how consumers want to receive care and the competition that we’re getting. It used to be your corner hospital. Now, there’s a WebMD, or there’s, sorry, a City MD, or a [inaudible 00:01:57], or some urgent care in the corner. And there’s even so many products online, like Teladoc, Amazon buying One Medical. We have to put ourselves out there in a way that is seamless, and that it also creates education and awareness that we felt. That is our differentiator from some of those competition.
Alan Tam (02:21):
Right. Interesting. You mentioned a lot about retail health, and a lot of these digital health companies. So definitely a lot of competition. So how do you keep Mount Sinai’s patients engaged amongst all this competition?
Otto Angulo (02:35):
Like I was saying, I think one of the things that we’ve figured out is that, this retail healthcare, they’re focused on the immediate care. You have a cough, how can I get it solved? Or I have a fever, or I had COVID, what do I do? And some of those things come as a part of the entire healthcare journey. But when you go to one of those things, you cannot really… It’s like, if you have heart palpitations, do you need a heart surgery? Do you need heart stance? Do you need anything that is more than that? And so what we do is, we differentiate by saying… Giving that message, and giving that awareness and education, becoming more of a resource that then takes you to that action. Oh, I’m having hip pain. If I go across the street to this urgent care, can they really treat me? And COVID generated this, because people were scared. They needed something immediate.
But at the same time, they know that if they need something that is specialized, or something that is that, they have to go to a hospital, to a health system that is doing it. And that’s something that we are really putting out there. We’re doing it in all of our campaigns. We focus our campaigns on the entire funnel. There’s an awareness, there’s the middle of the funnel, where people are investigating, and then obviously, the conversion side of it. And so it’s just those ways of getting them into your doors. And then, when they’re in your doors, how do you keep making sure that they’re loyal? There’s always this kind of thing about… You’re not Nike, you’re not decent. You’re not a brand that you can be loyal. It’s a healthcare system. And in the area that we are in New York City, there’s a competition across the street. You walk out, and there’s a competitor, New York Presbyterian, NYU, Northwell.
And so what you have to do is, you got to give that information in the right times, in the right process. So how do you do that? And we do that with different campaigns. We use our CRM as a tool for insights. We use that for targeting, and then executing campaigns, and also driving that entire journey and touchpoints through the… Until we can get them to become a patient. After they become a patient. Then they come into this other cycle where we’re touching them. And we do this engagement. We keep our brand present. We have some communications that are coming out, not just appointment reminders or things like that, but we have a newsletter that has become some kind of an avenue for patients to understand their post surgery journeys or their continuous life cycle with healthcare, which is a different path than… You go buy sneakers and… You’re buying them. And that’s it.
Alan Tam (05:49):
Right. That’s really interesting, especially when you’re talking about using CRM for insights and targeting, and being the head and the lead for digital marketing. What strategies and channels have you found to be most effective for engaging folks?
Otto Angulo (06:08):
It all depends on what type of journey they are. So we do campaigns for our brand, for our awareness. And for those, there’s certain channels, like programmatic, that are really great, social. It’s a pretty good awareness. When we’re focused on the conversion side, there’s more… The display side or the SEM side are really critical. And then, some touch points, as well as health risk assessments. So we’re putting those ads there. We’re putting those… And we take them to these specialized landing pages where people can identify what area of their journey are. I’m having this pain. Why am I having this pain? If I have this pain, there’s a series of questions that can then take you… It’s like, “Okay, maybe you need to have an appointment with the doctor. Here’s a way to schedule this appointment.” Or “You are in this middle of the road. You want to keep informed. Give us your email, and we’ll keep you informed on this.”
And we start capturing all these moments from the patients that are allowing us to either target them, if they really need something to act immediately, or if not, we can keep nurturing that lead little by little. And so it’s something that we have felt, that is key for our success, because we’re getting really good leads. And when those leads come in, we’re being able to attribute those exactly to the campaigns, or to things. And it’s something that we started having more axis over the past year and change, because it was like a black box.
It was like, “Okay, we have all these leads. Where did they go?” Now we have a way to get them, from the beginning, all the way to the end, and see how much… Are they generating revenue? Are they not generating revenue? Are they coming from the right places? And so our team has become savvy, or smarter, doing this. We now have information of, what are the right zip codes to target at the right times? What are the media or the areas that these people are looking on our website? We’ve seen, with some of the things, our website traffic is also increasing. Because now, we’re building content that is relevant to what the campaign is. It’s relevant to what we’re seeing and we’re listening to in all these mediums that we’re putting out there.
Alan Tam (08:47):
That’s a very holistic approach for sure. And you make the workflows, right now, sound so simple, but I know it’s super complex.
Otto Angulo (08:54):
It definitely is complex. Obviously, I’m trying to put it in context for everybody that is listening to this. Because if you think about this, it’s not just a… It’s like, “Okay, we got the data. And let’s do this and this, and this. And then, it’s done.” It’s a constant journey. You get the data that gives you some insight. You think that’s the right thing, but it’s like everything. It’s like, you got to get the right recipe. The first time… I was in a conference last weekend, someone was like, “Yeah, we’re always making cookies.” And I was like, “What are you talking about? Are you talking about the cookies are going away?” “No, no, no. We’re all making cookies. And the first time we make the recipe, we burn the cookies.” And so it’s not about always having that perfect cookie. You’re learning every day, with what you do. And so the first time, you don’t have the perfect cookie, but you start knowing. It’s like, “Oh, I put too much sugar, I put too much…” And now, you have something that is edible. And it’s given you great results.
Alan Tam (10:00):
I love that analogy, which leads me to the next question. So as you’re learning to bake these cookies, we’ll continue to use that analogy, what have been some of the things that you’ve learned? What has been some of the biggest challenges for Mount Sinai in terms of implementing this?
Otto Angulo (10:19):
One of the things is, obviously, resources. And so you have to be really smart in how to use those. And so we’ve partnered with two agencies. And so we see great results with an agency, and then we say, “We’re doing this.” And then, “Why can you not do this?” And you start digging into some of the things that they’re doing. And then, he’s like, “Why are we doing this? And why is Facebook [inaudible 00:10:47] telling you this?” And then, if I go there, it’s not telling me the same thing. So it’s like… Depending on where you go, there’s going to be… There’s not a perfect truth. Agency A can have the recipe a little better. And the other one is doing it, and it’s getting results, but it’s not matching. And it’s never going to be a perfect science between the two agencies. And so what we’ve done is, we’ve taken best things from both sides, and try to apply them into the campaigns. And the reason we’re doing that is because we know that this agency is better for this type of procedure, or this type of things, and they have that expertise.
And the other ones have this other expertise. And so what it’s comes to mind is that there’s a knowledge curve. And at the same time, there’s that knowledge curve. Not everybody is specialized in the same thing. And so you have to have avenues to venture. And so there’s companies that could be great for orthopedics. And then, there’s great the ones for heart. And some that will never touch what you want to do. And some will tell you. And some, they’re like, “Yeah, give us the money, and we’ll do it.” And then, you’re [inaudible 00:12:07] like, “We’ve been doing this for a month. Why are we not…” Again, it’s like, “Well…” And so you start digging, digging and digging. And so in one of those… Digging, digging, we saw this… Yeah. You’re saying that we’re getting leads, but the leads are not for this right program that we’re trying to do. Are you not… And you’re saying, “Here’s 40 leads.” It’s like, do you know what those 40 leads are? There’s a system that is telling you what those… He’s like, “No, we have not thought about it, but that’s a great idea.”
I’m paying you to be the one that comes with the ideas, instead of me having to… So it’s also been a learning curve, and building a team, a right team. It hasn’t been easy in healthcare, because there’s been a lot of competition, there’s a lot of people thinking that healthcare is a very complicated thing to do. And they goes against their principles. We’ve had some candidates that say, “Yeah, I cannot market someone to go to this hospital, this other hospital, because it’s a personal choice.” It’s not about a personal choice. And we’re not doing that. We’re doing something that we’re creating awareness to say, “Hey, we’re doing this great thing that you might not know. We did the first [inaudible 00:13:24] transplant. Do you know that?” Somebody doesn’t know. It could be in the news, but… You paid attention to the news? Probably not, because you’re tired of hearing the same news all the time. So they have to find those ways to show that as well.
Alan Tam (13:38):
Okay. So based on what you’re sharing with me, a lot of the Facebook ads, a lot of the digital advertising that you guys do, let’s dissect that a little bit. I want to take a deeper look into the strategy, if there’s a difference in strategy between new patient acquisition and actually activating your existing patient base. How is that different, in your world?
Otto Angulo (14:03):
I think there’s a bit of an overlap in both, because… You could come to the hospital because you had a hip surgery first, but then you could have something with your heart, or you could have something with something else, or another family member has cancer. So the journey never stops. You could probably be a patient this year, and then not come for three years, because you are controlled. And so you could… In the life cycle of a patient, usually someone that has lapsed for two years becomes a new patient again. And so it’s a cycle that is… Sometimes, people with… Depending on what type of illness they have, or condition, you’re in that journey constantly. So those people that have chronic diseases, like diabetes or heart disease, or something like… You know they’re coming. Someone that has things like orthopedic or some other kind of illness like that, it’s not coming constantly, unless you break your foot every six months, or you break something.
I was one of those patients that broke… I was in touch. I was there, as an orthopedic patient, constantly. But going back to your question, how do we differentiate those? I think there’s two kind of journeys. There’s the one that is… You’re already here. How do we keep you in that cycle? And with those, we have a lighter touch. So we have, I was saying, some newsletters and some touchpoints that are less aggressive in saying, “Hey, Alan, you need to come for a new… And also, we need to follow rules, heap our rules.” You keep that thing. And so for example, with those… We know certain topics, like health and wellness, and certain things that are keeping those people engaged, like diet things, or a new weight loss center, a new test, radiology. People feel scared to ask those questions. So sometimes, having those avenues are easier to navigate and say, “I feel scared of telling that I got to get an ear exam, or I do…” If you see it in email, it’s like, “Oh, I’m going to do it. I might not need to tell my wife.”
Or “I might not need it, because I did it.” And then, you come back. It’s like, “Oh, here is it.” It’s not like you have cancer, you have to have the conversation. So if you have something like… It’s brand new, like the cancer journey. And so in a cancer journey, there’s different levels of cancers and different types of cancer, but if you think of the overall journey, it’s a “Come to Jesus” kind of journey. People either feel that something is not working, or not feeling well. You go to a doctor, the doctor gives you some diagnosis. And that diagnosis then makes you go into this circle of, “Okay, I’m going to research at WebMD. I’m going to go to the web.” And so it’s partnering with some things, like WebMD, and saying, “Okay. Now, we have these ads that can say, Mount Sinai has cancer services that are tied to this cancer article.” That then you can click on there.
Or you have our website, where we have all this health library, where we’re telling them… All this information that then ties to the doctors and things that… We have some programmatic ads, and some Facebook ads, that then target to go to those specific landing pages that can then take you to take the action to either request an appointment, or to go through that HRA, or health risk assessment, where it’s like, “Do you feel the pain here, or there? Maybe you should go and do this.” And so we do that. You get the diagnosis, you get the treatment. And we’re adding new services into the mix. And so we have, now, an infusion from home. So all these patients, now, don’t have to come to the hospital. There’s the COVID fear that’s like, “Okay, you got to go to the hospital and get your infusions. [inaudible 00:18:35] Get COVID. I have cancer. I’m going to get…” So we’re building all these other layers that can… Now, you’re in the funnel. You’re in the system. How can we keep you there and keep you happier, and knowing that these things are happening?
Alan Tam (18:48):
That makes a ton of sense. And I’m assuming, like you said earlier, all these metrics and insights are then captured in your CRM to drive additional communications downstream. Is that correct?
Otto Angulo (19:00):
Yes. And so we have intelligence that is capturing all this. And then, it helps us build personas. And so we can identify… And in some instances, a little bit of personalization. Because now, we know that you’re coming to these pages, but then if you come back to Mount Sinai, we can give you a little bit more of a personal journey rather than a very broad one, if you’re a brand new person coming into the Mount Sinai.
Alan Tam (19:29):
Okay. Yeah. That makes sense. I think, a lot of examples that you shared, also… Once a patient is on the care journey, it seems like you guys have it figured out in terms of how to nurture that patient through their care journey. Talk to me a little bit about, perhaps, more proactive type of communications, folks that haven’t been diagnosed, but they’re existing patients. So maybe Alan. I’m 20, I’m healthy, I’m single. I don’t really have anything major with me, but perhaps, I’m at high risk for diabetes or some other chronic conditions.
Otto Angulo (20:07):
Yeah. So that’s something that we’re starting to get our feet wet more and more. And that came with some of the intelligence that we have with the CRM. Because now, we can add layers of health propensities, or propensities of health, that are going to take us to identify patients that could potentially be in risk for X or Y. So that is something that… It’s new. It’s something that is in our journey of evolving our touchpoints, and evolving our way of saying… So we’re starting to do a few campaigns in the next few months, where we are using that intelligence and that data, that, now, we can say, “Hey, this is someone that has this propensity, that has this. How do we get them into this journey?” Without telling him that, “Hey, you’ve got diabetes,” or “You got propensity to have an knee surgery,” or something like that. But you get into this journey that we can get you in there.
So that’s part of our evolution, from going into these big campaigns, where we’re targeting a big universe into looking into our internal patients. And so we’re starting with some smaller campaigns. And there’s a lot of other things that come up, as a health healthcare system. And it’s integrating with other departments to understand those kind of things that are there, that they don’t really communicate to their patients. There’s all these things that come from… We have a department that is population health. And what that department does is, they have a universe of patients that… One part is under underserved. But then, there’s others where… We get a bulk of patients that are highly, commercially insured, or Medicare patients that, at some point, have had some relationship with us, but have never come back.
Or they have been diagnosed with something, and they went across the street to NYU or NYP. So this intelligence has given us the opportunity to bring back some of those people, understand where can we serve them better, and how do we get them to become loyal. And it’s a big word in healthcare, because you’re loyal, sometimes, to your doctor. And people follow doctors. And if your doctor goes from one hospital to another, I’ve seen that, and people go to that. There’s people that think that loyalty is because you have an app, like MyChart, that I have all my doctors in one. And then, the doctor leaves. “How do I do?” They get freaked out. And so it’s getting that education there.
Alan Tam (23:34):
Okay. Yeah, that’s definitely something that’s very unique and interesting about healthcare. Other industries you typically have a brand loyalty or brand following that healthcare consumers gravitate towards. But I think when it comes to healthcare, that’s a key challenge. What are some of the metrics that you guys are using today to measure and capture that… Whether it’s attribution, whether it’s conversions, to understand and optimize your outreach and your campaigns?
Otto Angulo (24:10):
So like I was saying a bit ago, we’ve been getting better with data. And one of the things that the agencies were… It’s like, we give you leads. We give you all these leads. They shot themselves on the foot, because they gave all these leads to this doctor that does this special surgery. And it’s like, “We gave you 50 leads in a month.” And the doctor’s asking all this questions, and all these things. And it’s like, “Well, I only see two. Where are the other 48?” And they’re like, “Well, they’re there.” And so we go back to the CRM. It’s like, “Well, there’s 48.” But 48 were not for this doctor. There were two for this doctor. And then, there were 48 that were for something else. They were for OBGYN, ENTs. And so what it did is…
Okay. We’re spending all this money. You got us 50 leads. We didn’t lose money because we got the leads. The doctor that gave the money, or that was doing the surgeries… It’s a complex, expensive surgery. So that paid off for the thing. So we did money. And we get a little extra from the other things. But when you are telling someone that you give them 50 leads, you got to be very sure of what that is. And so with that, we became much, much better, and telling them, “Okay, if you tell someone that you did this, you got to tell them exactly what those are.” And so how are we going to do it? And so we had to come up with a strategy for the agency and say, “Hey, you’re capturing all this information. Why are you not matching this with the real doctor, or matching it with the procedure?”
And so we had to help them build this matching system to be able to attribute, saying, “Okay. Now we have this…” We call it the halo, and the relevant attribution. Every halo event is great. It’s extra, but if you’re trying to do a thing for vascular surgery, and you’re getting ENT, that doctor is not going to care about the ENT. He cares about the vascular. And that’s what he is really focused on. And so when… It’s building that trust and communication, where… When you attribute something, you attribute it to the right place. And that’s where the CRM and these tracking tools are becoming our allies.
Alan Tam (27:07):
Right. Yeah. Definitely. That makes a ton of sense, especially from a healthcare marketing side. Now, let’s flip to the other side. When you’re talking about KPI’s metrics to your leadership and your executive team, what are the key metrics that you guys use to present to leadership or, quite honestly, to your finance partner in terms of, “Look, my campaigns, my technology that I’ve invested in are effective?”
Otto Angulo (27:35):
So in the past, it was… In the past, which is just about a year ago. It was like a guessing work. And we say, “Okay, we got this 40, 50, or 100, 200 leads.” You got all this from… Not only just leads, but calls and everything. So we were able to get to the point where we had actual leads, qualified leads, but we were not able to get to the next layer. So we knew that. And we would create an estimate that 10% of the people would become into a real appointment, and five would become a surgery. And this is how we are going to attribute. Now, we can go from the actual person lead, all the way to the end of the journey, where we can say, “Okay. We got the 50 leads. Now, out of that 50, 40% scheduled an appointment. And then, out of that 40%, then 10% really became in the appointments. And this is the contribution margin that we got at the end.”
So we were able to go all the way down to our return of investment. It’s something that healthcare has always been a little bit of a very hard sell to do, because marketing was never the priority. I hit in past history. I got someone from finance saying, “Well, you’re just marketing. Why do you need finance data?” You’re giving money. How can I tell you that I need money next year, for my budget? So it’s something that they’ve realized. And that’s why we partner with our finance team, our strategy team, to be able to get all the way to the bottom, allowing us to get this data. And we can say, “Now, we know what the real cost of a person having this type of procedure is going to be. And how much contribution margin we get.” So we know that if we put the money in the right places, we, at least, are going to get that money back.
And we’re going to be able to share that success. So the way that we presented… Now, we have this templated slides, where we take you through the stories. It’s like, “This is the campaign. This is how much traffic it drove. This is… Then from that traffic that they drove, is where the leads, this from the leads. And on the calls, this is how much revenue you generated. And this is where the campaigns it affected. And now, this is the total money that we get to you.” So finance is very… When I say “Very,” it’s very excited that we can get there. And they have really appreciated that we’ve done that, and that we’ve looked to get there, and that we can show… So it created more effort, on our side, to always try to push ourselves.
And so now, we know what are the campaigns, what are the areas that are successful for us. And we can work with strategy and say, “Hey, have you heard that this and this is getting us a really gotten return on investment? What do you think? Should we put our investments there? Do you see it growing? Do we have enough doctors to push this?” So now, it’s not just about… We’re doing the priorities, like orthopedics, heart, cancer. Now, we can go into areas, where we were less… Not less successful, but less active. And now, we’re successful. And so we have the means. And we can target very niche. We can say, “This is the consumer.” Or “This is the patient. And this is the area of where it is.” And that’s where we can put our money. We can go very granular and say, “This is a zip code. We don’t have to target a big DMA.” Or something like that right
Alan Tam (31:50):
Now, thank you for sharing that story. I think it’s incredibly valuable. One of the key things that, here at Healthcare, we’re trying to, also, help spread the word and educate on is, how can healthcare marketers be viewed as a revenue generator versus a cost center? And I think you guys are one of the few leading health systems that I’ve had the opportunity to speak with, who have started figuring it out. So if you were talking to one of your peers at a system that hasn’t figured it out yet, what type of advice would you give them in terms of… “Geez, you figured this all out. I don’t even know where to start. Where do I even start?”
Otto Angulo (32:31):
It’s funny because I had a conversation a few months ago, with someone at another health system, where I used to work. You started all this process. And you left. Now, you left us hanging. And so how do we get this back on track? And how do we get it? One of the things that exists is… And there’s this fear in healthcare, that we’re going to get hacked. And it’s the fear that comes from the top down. And so the CISO and all the security teams are always… Marketing is always getting hacked. They’re using Facebook, they’re using…. One of the things that I said is, you need to go to those people and say, “Hey…” The way that we’re doing this, it’s not to get hacked. There’s processes. All the people that are going to get access to this are going to get vetted.
There’s be all this. So start there. The second part of it is, really calm, prepare to that meeting of what you’re going to need. Because it’s like, I just need finance data. And there’s tons of finance data. And so if you come prepared and say, “Okay. In order for me to become successful with the information that I need, these are the few things that I need.” Don’t come asking for everything. If you throw the kitchen sink, you’re going to get nothing. Here is… Come really focused and say, “In order for me to calculate attribution and contribution, Martin, I need this, this and this. Maybe this other two things are… Maybe possibilities. Can we get those?” And so that opens the conversation, because you’re not telling finances, “Give me your entire financial system. And I’m going to absorb it into the CRM. And I’m going to use it.”
And it’s like, what are you going to do with that? So come prepared with that. And then lastly, is always be upfront. Never let anything fall through the cracks. If their process is slowing down, or if you need finance to know, always keep your leadership in sync with you, what you’re doing and why you’re doing it. Because if you don’t tell them, and then all of a sudden, they’re asking, “Why? Otto, I gave you all this. You got all my trust. Where is it?” And it’s like, “Well, it’s in finance.” And work, in tandem, with that. So make sure that you’re good with security, don’t go to finance asking for everything. And then, keep your leadership aligned, and in the loop with everything that you’re doing.
Alan Tam (35:23):
That makes sense. So given where you are now, what’s next? What’s on deck?
Otto Angulo (35:29):
So we spoke a little bit about our consumers, and our patients. So one of the things that we’re trying to do is… There’s a lot of data sources. We’re trying to become efficient with our data. So we’re doing a big push to standardize data in the way that people… Just come and say, “Hey, I got all these people. Come on, add it to your system.” It’s not all about adding. They might already exist there. How do we set up processes to be able to do that? Because that data is going to be, at some point, interesting and important.
And then, how do you use it? It’s just not data that sits in storage, or something like that. So that’s one of the big things that we’re doing. We’re going to start using more of our models into those personalized, unique journeys and campaigns, and continue to evolve in reporting. That’s going… It’s a never-ending story, but it’s also a way to, continue, be able for us to tell the story and success. Because, as you said, marketing is always been seen as the… You always use money, you need more money, but we are contributing. We create a big contribution to the health system, year over year.
Alan Tam (37:06):
Right. Wonderful. I really enjoyed this conversation. And one of the key things that our audience would like to know is, obviously, if we want to continue this conversation, what’s the best way for folks to get ahold of you to either pick your brain or to learn a little bit more insights in terms of digital marketing?
Otto Angulo (37:31):
Yeah. I think LinkedIn is always a great tool, but… I think that’s the starting point. But if you need my email, we can always add that into the notes of the podcast, or anything like that. Happy to answer that.
Alan Tam (37:48):
Okay. Fantastic. Thank you again for coming on Hello Healthcare, really enjoyed our conversation. And to our audience, thank you so much for listening today. And until next time, Hello.
Speaker 3 (38:01):
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