Reinventing Healthcare Marketing with Data-Driven Strategies, ft. Andrew Chang, Summit Health

Andrew Chang (00:00):
Retention, you have their data, you have their information. They’ve given you, hopefully, the agreement that you can start marketing or sending emails to them. And on top of that, it’s 90% plus of your patient base already. And so, I’d rather focus on the 90% and making sure that the retention is as good as it can be, versus trying to focus and spend a lot of time and money on the 10%.

Alan Tam (00:36):
Hello Healthcare. In today’s episode, I’m really excited to be talking about data-driven marketing. It’s actually one of my favorite topics. Now, data-driven marketing, it’s not a new concept. In fact, it’s been around for the past few decades, starting somewhere in the early to mid-eighties with the emergence of database marketing. Now for healthcare marketers, data-driven marketing is a lifeblood to the continuation and the success of their initiatives, their programs, and their campaigns. From brand awareness to patient acquisition and patient retention, data helps marketers better understand optimization, and helps them better understand their attribution, and ultimately it helps them deliver ROI, as well as top line revenue growth. Today, I am excited to have Andy Chang, VP of Marketing from Summit Health, join us. Andy, welcome to Hello Healthcare.

Andrew Chang (01:28):
Thanks for having me.

Alan Tam (01:30):
So Andy, you have the envious position of straddling two brands at Summit Health, both Summit itself, as well as CityMD. So how do you leverage data-driven marketing to drive and measure the success of those two brands?

Andrew Chang (01:47):
Yeah, that’s a good question. There are a lot of challenges that are definitely not unique, but at the same time, it makes the job a lot more interesting and fun. With CityMD, it’s an urgent care practice with over 160 locations. And the urgent care business is more transactional. You walk in, no appointment, you walk in when you need something looked at or some COVID test. And then Summit Health is more relationship driven. It’s your traditional physician practice group to ambulatory care. And it’s a very different mindset between urgent care.
(02:29):
And so while the data is actually all in the same place now with our EHR, Athena, and our CDP, the behavior is very different. And trying to marry the two is always a challenge, especially when we’re trying to promote one brand to the other. But at the same time, we have the blessing of being in healthcare, of having that patient data, our own patient data in house, and we can manipulate it and use it to our liking. And so, it’s a fun challenge for us to have, but it is definitely not easy.

Alan Tam (03:04):
So besides those two brands, what are some other key challenges that you and your team are facing in terms of measuring outcome and successes?

Andrew Chang (03:12):
Absolutely. A ton of challenges. So we have CityMD, again, like I said, is a transactional based business, no appointments needed. So how do you attribute a person who sees a campaign, or an ad, or what have you, and walks in, versus Summit Health where you have to make an appointment. You can’t just walk into your OB/GYN or what have you. And you’ve got to call, or you have online booking, or you have the patient portal through your EHR, you have follow-ups, maybe, that you book directly in the office. And so again, very different behaviors.
(03:48):
But what we’ve done is enable tracking with third party data and our own first party data to connect the dots from an attribution model standpoint. And so for CityMD, we use geolocation data where if someone interacts with an ad, or this device interacts with an ad or even an outdoor billboard, and that same device ends up in our CityMD location, we have that compared to a control group of those people that also saw the ad, but didn’t come to a CityMD. And then I get another control group for those that even didn’t see the ad at all. So we can see what the incremental lift is.
(04:25):
And then from the Summit side, same thing. We AB test and do test and control groups all over the place to see what the incremental lift is from an appointment tracking standpoint. And so, we have phone tracking, and we have pixels, we have campaign management tools that, again, track the first click to the last touch, all the way through, and again, compare it to the control group and see what the incremental lift is. And that’s how we figure out roughly what the marketing credit should be and how we measure our revenue.

Alan Tam (04:55):
That’s amazing. I think that’s definitely very bleeding edge. Few health systems are doing digital marketing correctly, let alone using things like geolocation for attribution. What led to you guys exploring that? Are you borrowing from other industries? What led you to that approach?

Andrew Chang (05:15):
Definitely borrowing. I used to work outside of healthcare, and these are the tactics that we used 10 years ago. And everyone always says healthcare is 10 years behind. It really is at least 10 years behind. And these are the things, again, that was just commonplace when I was in other industries. And so, a lot of vendors, interestingly enough, are actually afraid to work with us because of the HIPAA concerns and the liability. So you just have to keep on digging, and keep on pushing, and keep on finding the right balance between a third party tracking company that will be able to share some data that they are legally, and also compliance-wise, comfortable sharing with, and same for us. And so that part, we’re pushing the envelope a lot, but in terms of the overall tracking attributes and tracking methodology, we’re definitely borrowing from previous experiences.

Alan Tam (06:12):
Right. That’s awesome. So it’s interesting what you said about HIPAA and how vendors are a little bit hesitant to work with you on that front. That’s always been something that’s brought up when we’re talking about technology, and healthcare, and communicating with patients. Do you see that more as a true challenge that needs to be overcome, or is it more of an excuse?

Andrew Chang (06:38):
That’s a great question. Well, I think in reality it’s a challenge, but I tell the vendors it’s an excuse. They are rightfully protective of their IP. And coming into a highly regulated, highly scrutinized industry like healthcare probably scares people away, which I totally understand and get. But I think with time, especially in the last five years, maybe even less than that, more and more of these companies that used to say no to us are now saying yes. And they’re seeing the growth opportunity that there is. And we’re the largest industry in the world, if not the country. But the marketing, again, is so behind that these companies are now seeing the opportunity come. And so, now they’re trying to rightsize their internal processes, and compliance, and legal, and all that stuff to see how they can work with healthcare. And so we’re seeing more and more of that now. And so, it’s a little bit of both.

Alan Tam (07:43):
Right. I really love what I’m hearing from you. And again, this is just bleeding edge. Many health systems are actually in the opposite end of the spectrum that you guys are working at.

Andrew Chang (07:54):
Well, I don’t want to say that’s cool, but I want all of us to be ahead.

Alan Tam (08:00):
Right, right. But again, it’s just a podcast like this really helps others identify and understand what their peers are doing across the country. And hopefully this will inspire them to either reach out to you and to learn more about what they can do to improve their data driven marketing.

Andrew Chang (08:18):
Yeah, I hope so.

Alan Tam (08:20):
What type of KPIs do you guys use to measure the impact of your work, as well as your efforts?

Andrew Chang (08:26):
Yep. We got five main KPIs, and we set quarterly goals against them. Number one is revenue, marketing credit, a attributable revenue. Number two is return on ad spend, ROAS. Number three is what we call the close ratio, which is for our physician outreach team. How many physicians did you visit that started sending us new referrals, which is now going to be converted into new referrals because now we just started tracking that. Number four is ROMI, return on marketing investment. And then, number five is cost per acquisition. Especially for the primary care business, you want to fill that funnel of primary care patients as much as possible, and you want to do the cheapest and most efficient way possible. So you got to keep that metric, as well.

Alan Tam (09:11):
How did you guys identify these five? Why are these the top five KPIs for you guys?

Andrew Chang (09:16):
Yeah. So my standpoint from a marketing person is always marketing should be in charge of driving the revenue, driving the patients, creating the customer. And traditionally in healthcare, that’s not really what marketing is perceived as. And so, by having these metrics, and sharing these metrics, and reporting out these metrics to our leadership team, helps change that perception that hey, marketing isn’t just a group of people that makes cool brochures, or billboards, or whatever. We actually exist to drive revenue.
(09:54):
And so my whole stance is I’m going to prove it to you. All of it’s incremental, and return on ad spend or any kind of ROI metric is always incremental based. And we show how we got there and what the trends are, whether it’s good or bad, what channels, what campaigns are doing well. And I make my team report that out on a monthly basis, even if they hate it. It’s what our job is, it’s returning on investment that the company has trusted us with.

Alan Tam (10:23):
So were these KPIs initially driven by you or your finance partner, or was that collaboration?

Andrew Chang (10:29):
It was mostly driven by me and my boss, because finance doesn’t really know what marketing is, and I don’t know what finance does. They handle money, right, in a very smart way, and I’m terrible at that. So it was basically me and my boss coming together and was like, all right, look, how do we change, number one, the perception, and two, really just make it clear what our role should be and what our role is. And those are the metrics that we settled on. And my boss presented it to the board, and everyone was like, “That’s cool. Let’s go.”

Alan Tam (11:00):
Right. That’s awesome. You’re totally singing my song. And one of the key themes, I think, in the past couple years that we’ve been trying to encourage and to communicate out to the industry is that marketing should be viewed as a revenue generator versus a cost center.

Alan Tam (11:15):
And if you’re not achieving that, you’re doing something wrong. So I think these insights, these five KPIs that you shared, hopefully helps the listeners and our audience better understand some of the KPIs that they can start gravitating towards [inaudible 00:11:27]

Andrew Chang (11:27):
And my whole thing, when I used to work for Piedmont Healthcare in Atlanta, or for any of your non-profit healthcare system listeners, you’re taking money from your patients and your community. And in many cases, you’re causing financial distress on your patients because of the surgeries or the treatments that they’re going through. And if you’re not putting good use on being a good steward of the money that these patients are paying you, then why do you exist? Right?

Alan Tam (12:02):
Absolutely.

Andrew Chang (12:03):
And so that’s been my whole driving force, and from a nonprofit standpoint. Now we’ll work for a for profit, it’s a lot easier to sell the return on investment story and message, and they get it, especially with ae private equity backed group, and they speak that language.

Alan Tam (12:18):
That’s awesome. Yeah, good for you. Now, one of the things that I take a look at from a healthcare marketing perspective is you have your brand awareness and brand campaigns. The other thing that you guys are focused on typically is driving patient volume. And there’s really two approaches to that, I think. One is new patient acquisition and the other one is activating your existing patient base. So do these KPIs change for you between new patient acquisition versus targeting your existing patient base?

Andrew Chang (12:51):
It does change very slightly. For the retention metric, we do have a retention metric, but the KPIs, the goals itself, does change based on new versus existing. So for a new patient, as we all know, it’s multiples more expensive. That’s terrible English. It’s a lot costlier to get a new patient than to keep a patient. And so therefore, it’s not cool to have the same return on ad spend expectation or cost per acquisition metric for a new versus existing customer. So a CPA for retention is obviously, or cost to keep, is a lot lower than our CPA for a new patient. So the goals really don’t change that much from a name standpoint. It’s really more the goals itself.
(13:39):
And basically, we track it very closely, and it is still tough to nail down what the number should be because when I ask the peers in healthcare, “Hey, what’s your ROAS? Or What’s your ROMI?” a lot of times they don’t have one. And so, we’re just trying to figure out what should the baseline be, and what is good, what is bad. And so we actually borrow from retail and try to set a goal of four, a four to one ratio, for our ROMI and ROAS. But yeah, the numbers definitely change.

Alan Tam (14:15):
So today, not a lot of health systems actually focus on the retention piece which is interesting to me because like you said it’s so much more costly to acquire a new patient. Why is that? Why aren’t they choosing the cheaper route?

Andrew Chang (14:32):
If I knew that answer … Yeah, you think about the traditional marketing funnel. So you have awareness, consideration, purchase, loyalty, what have you, or however many steps of the funnel you define it as. And if you look at a new patient, you got to start from the top, awareness, which is the most expensive marketing cost. And then you have consideration, which is, again, you’re pouring a lot of money into trying to do retargeting or other ads, or you don’t have emails yet per se because they’re not a patient of yours. And you spend a lot of money trying to get someone to even just consider you.
(15:17):
Retention, you have their data, you have their information. They’ve given you, hopefully, the agreement that you can start marketing or sending emails to them. And on top of that, it’s 90% plus of your patient base already. And so, I’d rather focus on the 90% and making sure that the retention is as good as it can be versus trying to focus and spend a lot of time and money on the 10%. Now, the 10%, or less than 10% for the new patient acquisition part, sure it’s sexier. It’s more fun. You get to do the creative stuff and the ads. But really, when it comes down to the dollars and cents of it in an investment standpoint, retention makes more money per dollar.
(16:00):
And I don’t know why health systems don’t realize that, to be honest with you. And they always say they’re data driven marketers. And if you’re really data driven, then you should be looking at your retention numbers and what percentage of your patient base is new versus existing to hit your goals. And the numbers that I’ve seen in different health systems, 90% of your primary care patients are usually existing. And so why are we trying to get after that … grow that 10% when you have all the data you need to try to keep that 90%?

Alan Tam (16:33):
Right. So let’s help your peers out.

Andrew Chang (16:36):
Yeah.

Alan Tam (16:37):
What are some key differences, and strategies, and tactics for retention versus acquisition? What can they borrow from acquisition for retention, and how can they start down that path?

Andrew Chang (16:49):
Yeah. Well, like I said earlier, the funnel, right? So you don’t have to spend any money on awareness for your existing patients. I hope not. And you don’t have to spend too much in consideration as long as your website, and reviews, and find a doc, all that is updated. So, I would say it’s the opposite. Making the tools, making the experience of the patient as seamless as possible, makes it easier to acquire new patients instead of just focusing on the retention aspect. Because anything above that point, you are trying to get as much attention to someone who happens to be in the market of looking for a primary care or urgent care. And you can’t control that state of mind or that emotion when people want to find a new doctor. Retention rates are historically, across the board, actually pretty good for a primary care doc. The last time you switched primary care docs … I don’t know, Alan. Do you see a primary care doctor?

Alan Tam (17:54):
Yes. Yes, I do.

Andrew Chang (17:55):
Well, how long have you been seeing this doctor?

Alan Tam (17:58):
I would say at least four or five years.

Andrew Chang (18:00):
Four or five years?

Alan Tam (18:01):
Yeah.

Andrew Chang (18:01):
So I’ve been seeing mine for 15, and even when I worked for a competing health system, I still went to him. I didn’t want to change. And so, that tends to be the behavior, that tends to be the norm. People don’t just switch PCPs every year. So it is a lot harder to get a new patient for a PCP than it is to retain. But at the same time, the tactics that you can borrow off of each other is really more about the experience of booking, and post-visit, and the web experience, and the bill experience. So as long as you have a very good experience, I think there’s just a lot that you can just bar off of each other.

Alan Tam (18:44):
So what are some specific efforts that you guys have underway on the retention side that you really see taking off and working?

Andrew Chang (18:53):
So we just launched a CDP with Salesforce, and also launched the personalization tool. So we’ve linked the two, and it’s live now. And so what we’re doing as our main FY 23 strategy that our CMO has declared is making the most use out of CDP as possible. And the way you do that is building segments, identifying your prioritized segments. And so, if you have a retention goal, which are the segments that you can identify and prioritize, and that have the highest value, and what is the targeting for that going to be? What is the positioning going to be to that segment? And then, what is the go-to-market strategy going to be for that segment? And so it’s heavily digital based. And then, how do we personalize their experience whenever they come to our location, or our website, or app? How do we make it more of an omnichannel experience to make sure that they are, again, dealing with us in a seamless way as much as possible? And all of that’s going to be centered around our CDP.

Alan Tam (19:59):
Okay. Awesome. I love the fact that you guys are using that data to target the audiences, right?

Andrew Chang (20:05):
Yeah.

Alan Tam (20:06):
It helps you fulfill that promise of right message to the right patient at the right time. What are some additional challenges that you’re anticipating or you’re seeing in terms of reaching these existing patients?

Andrew Chang (20:17):
Man, okay. So, of course, nothing’s ever as smooth as you want it to go. We surprisingly, thanks to our partners in IT, and finance, and other partners outside the company, the data integration with our EHR was actually pretty smooth, thankfully. And so that would not be the biggest challenge. It would honestly be trying to identify the use cases and enhancements that we want to make as part of our tool. So how deep and how broad do we want to go with a really powerful tool like CDP and our personalization tool, Interaction Studio? Because there’s just a limitless number of combinations that you can do now that everything is centralized. And so the challenge for my team is how do we prioritize those segments?
(21:18):
The second thing is the attribution aspect of it. Healthcare is, of course, like we just talked about, notorious for being a little behind. And it’s always, sometimes … Never, no, always. It’s always an uphill battle to get the right tagging in place and the right tracking in place, especially on areas where there might be PHI. And so we do have some gaps in our attribution model that we do small sampling of, and of course, it’s all anonymized, but small sampling of and try to figure out how we can fill those gaps.
(21:55):
But making our attribution model more and more accurate is another big challenge. And attributing that back to our CDP, that is our next big challenge. And on top of that, hopefully building a marketing mix model that gives us even more accurate and more holistic looking attribution model, or excuse me, not attribution model, marketing model, so we could refine tactics, and channels, and campaigns. Those are the two that I see in the horizon.

Alan Tam (22:24):
Okay. No, those are definitely two very sound strategies. The concept of CDP and integrating with your EHR, very inspiring. I’ve also had the opportunity to actually talk with a lot of health systems where they’re having trouble, healthcare marketers are having trouble leveraging first party data and leveraging, oh, you can’t have access to HR data, PHI, HIPAA, et cetera. What would be your recommendation to your peers who are in those environments of, look, we need to be able to leverage that data to personalize our communications to reach out to the right segments?

Andrew Chang (23:02):
Yeah. My recommendation is to quit. Just kidding. Totally kidding. No, that’s a very commonplace thing. It is commonplace, and it’s part of the perception issue that we have as marketers. Like, whoa, whoa, why do you need patient data? And so, it’s all about having a conversation with IT folks, to compliance folks, to legal folks, and here’s the use cases. You tell us what the guidelines are, and let’s talk through it. And here are all these other health systems that are doing the exact same thing as what we want to do. And it becomes a negotiation. And so part of our negotiation at Summit Health and CMD was all the people that touch patient data and marketing has to take a compliance course. No problem. We should anyways, right?

Andrew Chang (23:50):
And then the second thing is, another best practice was having all data requests go through a data governance committee so that everything that we do is above the line, and it’s transparent, and so that they learn that they can actually trust us with the data we’re going to handle it responsibly. The last thing a marketer wants to do is, honestly, lose the trust of our customer, of our patient.

Andrew Chang (24:16):
And so there’s always just negotiation that’s going to have to happen, but you’ve got to demonstrate willingness to be just as protective of patient data, and talk about how you’re going to use it, be very clear, and keep them apprised and aligned the whole way through. And yeah, we’ve done it a couple times now, but it always ends up being in a good way, a much better working relationship with IT, with our BI team, with our compliance team, with our legal team. And we know where the hard lines are that we just will never cross.

Alan Tam (24:51):
So based on what you’ve shared with me, I’d love to be a patient of Summit Health.

Andrew Chang (24:55):
Come on over. We’d love to have you.

Alan Tam (24:59):
How are you measuring that patient experience? What type of metric are you using there to gauge your-

Andrew Chang (25:06):
One thing I love about this company, one of the many things I love about this company, but they are very obsessed about NPS. And so we actually do a lot of NPS surveys, and it’s actually part of the doctor comp model, as well. And so, we have a whole report in our BI dashboards, all about NPS, where you can filter it down to the date, location, the doctor, the type of procedure, all of these types of things, and for any of our CityMD locations.
(25:36):
And then we actually look at that on a very, very regular basis as a whole team, not just marketing team, but as the leadership team, and then try to figure out how do we improve the NPS scores, and how do we focus on getting more surveys out when we need to, or how do we figure out, hey, this group here came during a very, very busy period to our CityMDs. So what message can we send out to them to make sure that they come back and make sure that they’re aware that this is a good place to come back to. We’ve figured it out, or we’re sorry for your past experience, et cetera.

Andrew Chang (26:12):
But we’re pretty obsessed about NPS.

Alan Tam (26:14):
Great. How long have you guys been using NPS for to measure that?

Andrew Chang (26:17):
Oh, before my time.

Andrew Chang (26:19):
So at least two years, or at least three years, at least. So I can’t give you the exact answer, but it’s been many years, for sure.

Alan Tam (26:28):
Okay. All right. Have you been able to see the improvement of the NPS score since you’ve been there, like a percentage improvement given everything that you guys have done?

Andrew Chang (26:40):
Our NPS has definitely improved quite a bit. I will say that. And we actually do a survey asking NPS scores against our competitors, as well. And our numbers are always consistently high. However, I can’t take any real credit for that because I don’t have direct oversight of the experience of the patient. Our ops team does, and they do an amazing job. I’m serious, they really, really look at those numbers every day. I’m very impressed by how they are really attuned to the customer’s feelings, and expectations, and perception.

Alan Tam (27:15):
But you are a part of that attribution, right? May not be a significant part, but at least a little part. Claim a little bit of credit.

Andrew Chang (27:20):
Maybe a little part, yeah. Yeah. Hopefully. But, we do build segments based off of the NPS scores, and we do target people that we, again, did not have the best experience. So, sure, in that sense, okay.

Alan Tam (27:34):
Right. No, I really like that approach, especially most people, especially most healthcare would probably shy away from that. But for you guys, tackling head on, I think that’s making lemonade out of lemons, right? And it’s a great opportunity for you to deliver and to raise those scores.

Andrew Chang (27:51):
Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

Alan Tam (27:51):
So what’s next? What’s next for your patient initiative, patient retention initiative?

Andrew Chang (27:56):
Patient retention initiatives, well, we’re going to get very granular. And we’re partnering with our implementation partners, and also our data science team, to start building more and more complex models using machine learning to try to create lookalike models, and also maybe patient cohorts of the type of patient that we’re trying to prioritize from a profit lifetime value or other strategic plan goal standpoint. And so, that’s the next challenge. We have CDP. How do we link it directly into a machine learning tool and get a lot more complex as opposed to trying to brainstorm ideas of segments right now? So that’s really fun to me, being able to use tools like that. And I don’t know how many healthcare systems are doing this today, but it’s something that we’re pretty dead set on moving forward with.

Alan Tam (28:55):
That’s very impressive. What’s led you to this particular step in terms of, oh, let’s take a look at using machine learning to develop these models.

Andrew Chang (29:07):
You have the crawl, walk, run approach, and I’ve always said that we’ve started with tummy time. We’re just trying to figure out how to roll over. We’re probably at a light jog. If we want to go into a full sprint, what does that look like? And so, we actually have this roadmap that we’ve planned out. What does a sprint look like? It’s using AI, it’s using ML, it’s launching and using our CDP to the maximum capability. Basically, we bought a Ferrari. It’s time to take it on the track and become experts at it. And so again, what does that look like? Here’s what that looks like, and here’s what we’re driving to, and that’s how we determine what’s next.

Alan Tam (29:47):
So part of the challenge, I think, especially in healthcare, is getting everyone else on board. So who are the partners in this initiative that [inaudible 00:29:55]

Andrew Chang (29:55):
We have a lot of partners. So we did a pretty big roadshow internally when we were talking about CDP. And so it was finance, it was our chief operating officers, our chief data science officer, our chief product officer, our CEO, and then CIO, and the VPs underneath them. We spent a lot of time, honestly, educating them on why we need a CDP, at least for marketing, if not for the enterprise, and just got buy-in, answered all their questions as much as we could. And to make them feel good and comfortable, we had a business case laid out that showed a pretty good return within a short time period, which I had finance vet with me so that I could make sure that my numbers were reasonable, if not conservative. That’s how we approach it normally, is just getting people on board first and making sure they know what we’re doing. Because especially from a data standpoint, it involves a lot of data. And so, just continuing that transparency approach.

Alan Tam (31:04):
Right. No, I think that’s a fantastic approach, and kudos to you to be able to pull together all those support and champions within your [inaudible 00:31:13]

Andrew Chang (31:13):
Yeah. Now I got to deliver on the results. We’ll see.

Alan Tam (31:15):
The easy piece.

Andrew Chang (31:16):
Done. Exactly.

Alan Tam (31:18):
Hey, Andrew, I want to say thank you so much for coming in today and talking with us-

Andrew Chang (31:23):
Yeah, I’m happy to be here.

Alan Tam (31:24):
… yeah, about data driven marketing. If people want to continue this conversation and learn more from you and all the innovative things that you’re doing, what’s the best way for them to get ahold of you?

Andrew Chang (31:35):
Sure. There’s many ways. So I will say LinkedIn, obviously. I’m most active person on LinkedIn, to be honest with you, but LinkedIn. And then that’s pretty much it. I don’t think I want to give up my phone number-

Andrew Chang (31:52):
… and email address. Or they can ask you, Alan.

Andrew Chang (31:58):
You can be the guy with the answers.

Alan Tam (32:00):
Or they can come to conferences. What are some of the conferences that you attend that they can come and meet you and-

Andrew Chang (32:04):
Yeah. The two conferences I usually go to HCIC and HMPS.

Andrew Chang (32:07):
And then Dreamforce. Or we’re a big Salesforce shop, so we’ll be at the Salesforce conferences and we usually speak there, and concerts. I’ll be performing, you can see me perform there. No, I’m just kidding. You could see me just around.

Andrew Chang (32:28):
I’m pretty accessible, though. I’m always happy to help. I really do believe in making sure that the marketing function and healthcare moves forward in a more faster pace.

Alan Tam (32:40):
Right. Well, again, Andrew, thank you so much. So for our audience that’s watching and/or listening, highly recommend you check out these conferences and grab Andrew, corner Andrew, if you get a chance. Or Andy, as he likes to be referred to.

Andrew Chang (32:55):
Doesn’t matter.

Alan Tam (32:57):
But thank you very much again, Andy, for your time. And until next time, Hello.

Speaker 3 (33:05):
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