Healthcare Career Growth as an Asian American

Chris Hemphill:
All right, everybody, we are live. The broadcast has begun. Hello Healthcare. Hello LinkedIn. Hello YouTube. However, you’re consuming us today, we’re extremely excited to have you. And this is a unique conversation, but with this being Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. And with recent events such as, like I live in Atlanta and we know about the slaying of eight people, six of them being Asian American. There’s a lot that hasn’t previously been highlighted about disparities regarding the Asian community.

Chris Hemphill:
You might have seen even in the introductory letter that we put it here that Asian Americans are the least likely to be promoted into management positions. So, we thought that this would be a good opportunity to talk about career growth in healthcare as an Asian American, and just open up the conversation. We know that there are people who are watching who may have suffered disparities, might be entering the career for soon and might be considering how they want to best craft their career.

Chris Hemphill:
And other people that just want to have questions on the appropriate ways of being an ally and being helpful. So, we wanted to create a space for all those considerations, and allow you the opportunity to talk to some people who had a lot of success in the career world. But we want to focus on the journey and the challenges in getting to where they are today. So, to do that, our panel, I’m cohosting here with Ying Lee, who simply is a data engineer lead at SymphonyRM.

Ying Li:
Oh, yeah. Hey.

Chris Hemphill:
And as our panelists, we have been Ben Chao, who is presently the president of CareConnect at Multicare Health System in Washington. And really been in our conversations, I’ve just been really enthused by your emphasis on leadership, on using technology to achieve outcomes. And the work that you’ve done on the technology side, but also on the engagement side. But just wanted to give you the chance to say hello, before we go ahead, get started.

Ben Chao:
Yeah. Thanks, Chris, for having me. It’s a real pleasure to join you and be with you. And it’s actually an honor when you in the SymphonyRM team decided to reach out and ask me to be a part of this. I think that particularly in this time, with this month and what we’ve all been through over the last year, the last 18 months, et cetera, there’s no better time than now to have a real open and honest dialogue about what it means to be an Asian American healthcare leader.

Ben Chao:
Particularly in an industry that is undergoing a lot of rapid change and has a lot of new entrants. So, I’m really excited to connect the dots there. Pleasure to be with you.

Chris Hemphill:
Fantastic. Thank you, Ben. And on the SymphonyRM side, Priscilla McCloskey is our head of product. And I’ve had the pleasure of working with her for two years and seen her instill some great values, in terms of how we think, innovate and grow. And Priscilla just wanted to give you the opportunity to say hey too.

Priscilla McCloskey:
Thanks a lot, Chris and Ying for having me. Excited to talk with Ben and all of you about these really important issues. And yeah, I think it’s great that we’re having this conversation at this time too.

Chris Hemphill:
Excellent. So, as we get started, just want to remind everybody that this is… we’re socially distanced. We’d love to be able to do this in a room with you, but we can’t. But we want to open it up so that you can participate virtually. So, if you have questions or if you have comments, you have stories, drop them here, we’ll address them, that’s all part of the conversation. So, anything that you’re comfortable discussing or asking, we would love to engage you in that conversation.

Chris Hemphill:
But to get it kicked off, we want to get into the conversation and just talk about these leaders, this journey about growth into leadership as AAPI. So, I’ll hand it over to Ying to start with the questions.

Ying Li:
Yeah. So, what does it mean to you to be an Asian American leader? And how do you think being Asian American has affected your professional career path into becoming a leader?

Ben Chao:
Yeah. Ying, thanks for the question. I think that sometimes, to be perfectly frank, it can feel a little bit lonely, and I feel actually relatively lucky. And I think, that we all summarizing our career success as being a combination of meritocracy, right? Interpersonal skills and some of the soft skills, I think you’d roll that into meritocracy. And honestly, luck and circumstance, right? And I’m really lucky to have a role model at work, who is my current boss.

Ben Chao:
Who I think is one of the very few Asian American Pacific Islander healthcare executives and the c-suite of a relatively large health system, right? And so, when you think about how lonely of a journey must have been for her, right? To literally have been one of… probably the only one across the entire country, up to even two decades ago. I think, I get a lot of comments sometimes, “Oh, it’s really cool to see someone who looks like me, who is in a position like this.”

Ben Chao:
And so, I think it actually means a lot. I think, I wear it as a badge of honor, and sometimes, you look up when you’re in a meeting and you look around, and you don’t quite see a lot of people who are like you. Or sometimes, people may make the assumption, “Oh, you must be Dr. Chao, the physician. I’m like, “I’m not, but I appreciate that.” And I think that it’s actually quite telling that a lot of health systems, right? Particularly on the provider health system side of things.

Ben Chao:
I think, there’s a growing contingent and a growing diversification of what it means to be a healthcare administrator or leader. I think, that there may be more of a difference between, what it’s like to be on the technology vendor startup side. And I think it’s just quite fascinating, right? And to be perfectly frank, I think there’s often a saying in which, if you really want to grow your career, especially if it’s something you’re passionate about, a great arena or place to be able to learn a lot at a short amount of time is in rural health, right?

Ben Chao:
Because in these critical access hospitals or in some of these smaller communities, that may not be slightly less staffed with senior leadership, you end up being the person who does almost everything, right? If you’re the director of operations at critical access hospital, you end up owning IT, imaging accolades, et cetera. And I think one of those constraints for me though was, I wasn’t sure that I would have a peer community that I genuinely… that I feel understood by, that I can deeply connect with.

Ben Chao:
And that’s not out of anything more than just me feeling a kinship to my friends and the communities I grew up with. Being able to live 10 minutes away from Chinatown and go have the food that we’d like to have. It’s things like that I think have made me focus, “Okay, there’s a certain place that I need to be able to focus it on. There are certain people that I want to be able to work with.”

Ben Chao:
And so, overall, just a couple of those tangents, it is unique. It is I think, a little bit lonely. And I think that there’s a growing community of Asian American Pacific Islander healthcare leaders that are starting to step in, where you’re starting to feel a little bit less of that isolation. I don’t know for some of you, you felt the same way in your career path?

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah, that’s really interesting. Yeah, to the question, I think of it in a couple different ways. One, is I think about my roots, and I think about the trajectory of our family. So, on my mother’s side of the family, like my grandfather, came to the US as a paper son and houseboy, worked his way up. And eventually, my mother met my father who came to the US. And was a poor grad student living in apartment with seven roommates.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And then, I think of where the next generation is able to get to, and where I am able to get today and I’m really grateful for that, and really humbled by that. And then, I think about things, like I read the HBR article that you guys shared. And you think, well, that’s great to be grateful, but then let’s think about where we actually shouldn’t be. And where we should be is not quite equitable yet. So, I think, like you said Ben, it’s great that there’s a growing community.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And I think, we just really need to make sure that we spend time nurturing that community and reaching out to others, and making people feel supported.

Chris Hemphill:
I’m not sure if everybody in the chat right now has had an opportunity to read that. But it’s in the invitation, we’ll drop the link in a little bit as well. But that was a really hard-hitting article. And honestly, a surprise to me, I wasn’t aware of that condition either. The article highlighted that Asians are the least likely group in the US to be promoted into management. So, I want to throw that question at you, starting at Ben.

Chris Hemphill:
I mean, they have some theories as far as that might be. But when you read that title, what was your gut reaction to it? And why do you think that is?

Ben Chao:
So, to be frank, I wasn’t entirely surprised. And I think that’s an unfortunate, sad reality or truth. And this is something that I’ve had a dialogue with several other of my peers who are in similar, slightly earlier stages that occur, the first 5, 10, 15 years out in the workforce. And I often link it back to a proverb. I think it’s a proverb that is often recast or reused in different Asian cultures, right? But I think, that it often comes from this Japanese proverb of, the nail that rises, that is at very highest in the plank is the first one that gets hit, right?

Ben Chao:
And I think that almost inherently, as an Asian American, there is often this mantra that came from my parents, right? Keep your head down, do your work really hard, work really hard, don’t ask for too much attention, and it will be rewarded, right? And I think that expectation of reward sometimes comes at a cognitive dissonance to the American business culture, which is really around, making sure that you represent yourself in a really positive light to your peers, to your coworkers, to your leaders, right?

Ben Chao:
And advocating for that promotion looks like. And so, I think inherently, there’s a cultural piece here. Where we may work really hard, but if we don’t necessarily show all the fruits of our labor or ask for that level of credit, once that output has been put out, it’s hard to actually have that level of recognition, right? So, part of that, I think, is finding those people who will recognize that in you, and will stand up for you, right? And I think part of that is sometimes having to be bold.

Ben Chao:
And I think that bonus is challenging, it’s difficult, right? Particularly if we’re introverts. And so, sometimes it requires a way of balancing both confidence and humility, the humor that I think that we’ve all been taught, right? To say, “I think that I’ve done really great work.” And so, to me, what I’ve always tried to encourage my peers, I say is really, “Ask and you shall receive. And may not be 100% what you’re looking for, but there’ll be something closer. We’ll continue that next level opportunity.”

Ben Chao:
And I think that I can only lead to better paths. And if you find that you’re stuck in that place, I think that it hit the decision for you, right? It’s time for you to look somewhere else, or look for that other systemic change to help your career growth.

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah, the way you phrase that just raises, especially the concept of being bold with your accomplishments, recognizing and appreciate the things that you’ve done, and knowing that you’re worth it to go out there and ask. I’m just curious, you don’t have to name any names or organizations or anything like that, but do you have any examples that come to mind, a scenario where you had to be bold and step up? And how did you frame up those conversations?

Ben Chao:
Yeah, absolutely. And I think that there are a lot of companies that have this mindset of, “Oh, you know the best way to get a promotion is to already be doing the work.” Right? But then, you’ve been doing it for three to six months, and you’re like at, “Okay, what do I make that asking? How do I make that ask?” Right? And I think that we have a question later around, what can you do to support and help, show up for AAPI’s who are looking to get into healthcare leadership, right?

Ben Chao:
And part of that is creating, leaving the door open to say, “I’m okay to being told that you want to redefine what your role is.” Right? And there’s one person in particular that I really do want to recognize beyond, Florence Chang, my mentor at MultiCare, our Vice President and Chief Technology Officer at MultiCare [inaudible 00:13:24]. Because for a while my role at MultiCare was really strictly around telemedicine and virtual urgent care as a service, right?

Ben Chao:
And what happened was, increasingly, I was getting tapped on the shoulder to say, “Hey, Ben, you have some interest in healthcare innovation technology and access to care, let’s start talking about online scheduling. Let’s start talking about digital front door. Let’s start talking about consumerism, and understand our customer.” Which is how I met the great folks at SymphonyRM, right? And so, what that ended up turning to was Brad turned around and realizing, “Oh, Ben, you’re doing a couple of things that are beyond just what we would call virtual care telemedicine.” Right?

Ben Chao:
And I said, “Well, let’s talk about that Brad. Let’s have a conversation about how we redefine the role, recognizing that there’s a replicable model for we’ve done in this space. And begin to use that as an internal consulting service for other elements of digital transformation.” And so, it takes two listen, and I’m really deeply grateful to someone like Brad for caring enough to listen and say, “You know what, this is the next way in which we can transform your career.”

Ben Chao:
So, having champions like that out there is absolutely critical and keeping that after talent. I think, Brad and I both saw that opportunity and built something pretty unique and fascinating to follow up on that.

Chris Hemphill:
I appreciate-

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah, yeah.

Chris Hemphill:
Priscilla, I was just going to really just turn the question over to you, but go ahead.

Priscilla McCloskey:
No, I just wanted to go back on some of the points that Ben made earlier today, I think it’s worth dwelling on a bit, which are the cultural dynamics that are going on. I do think that reflecting on my own upbringing, and upbringing I know of others in the Asian community, it is really valued when you’re growing up to be quiet, actually, to be humble, to make sure you respect authority. Sometimes to think about others to the point of being overly considerate, that’s really a lot of times what you learn from your parents, and the culture is valued.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And when you compare that to what the rest of America values in terms of leadership, it’s the opposite. To be a leader, you’re expected to be bold and to be loud, and to dominate a conversation, or to bring all these ideas that you may or may not be sure about sometimes. And really to put yourself out there, and that’s often not what we’re used to doing as we grew up as Asian Americans. So, I think like Ben said, that’s something you really need to work at and think about on an almost daily basis.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And then, I would just add on to that. In addition to that, we also have working against the sometime just images in the media, right? Like, there aren’t lots of prominent Asians in the media, in movies, out there in leadership positions. And so, when people think about stereotypes of Asian Americans, it’s not often president or leader of the company or politician. So, again, we have to really work against the stereotypes and get people to think of us in those ways.

Ben Chao:
And to add to Priscilla’s point, I think that glorification of that Asian stereotype, being good at math, being very serious, being a great student, right? I think that at a certain point, that actually is used to a fault, and it’s something that’s actually quite dangerous and perpetuating that stereotype. And I think, that it’s important for us to talk about the double m word, model minority, because the way in which I interpret the concept of model minority is actually not one that’s helpful.

Ben Chao:
I think that in previous gen, like my dad’s generation, I think very much valued being seen as model minority, right? He said, “I took pride in being that one person who was a non-White person in tech who charged hard and got stuff done.” Right? Him and I have had this conversation many times. And I said, “Dad, that’s wonderful for you, and I think it worked for you at the time.” I think that what we need to see there was a broader picture.

Ben Chao:
And that’s, “I don’t want you Dad to think of model minority as a special badge that you got from more traditional American business culture that you get to wave around, say, I’m special,” right? Because what that does in turn, is I think it damages or makes things more challenging for anyone else who is a person of color, right? And I think that it took some time to recognize that diversity in that spectrum, right?

Ben Chao:
That people have very different histories of intergenerational trauma, or just because of the tone of their skin or seen very differently, right? And immediately, there’s that implicit bias that comes in. And I said that the last thing that we want to be as Asian Americans, particularly the Asian Americans who came to United States for economic opportunity, to see us as a crutch for either the repression or for the fraud. To be honest, to build greater challenges for other people of color.

Ben Chao:
So, this level of championship, I think, is unique in that. I think that Asian Americans have a lot of work that we can do to set up, not just for other Asian Americans, but for other people of color, regardless of their race, ethnicity, background.

Chris Hemphill:
Ying, we’ve covered a lot of ground here with regards to career advancement and dismantling that concept of model minority, even being a good thing. Before you jump to the next question, I was curious if you had any thoughts or anything that you’d like to share, based on what Priscilla and Ben have just discussed?

Ying Li:
Yeah. No, plenty of thoughts thinking in my head. So, one thing that Priscilla pointed out was like the lack of Asians in media or in even in social media. And I remember vaguely, I used to teach in college as a poor grad student, and I’m actually taught ethnic studies. And one of the first questions I’ve asked as part of my lesson is, can you name an Asian American CEO? And the room was completely silent. And also asked another question, how many Whites or Caucasian CEOs you know?

Ying Li:
And then, they nearly said, like Bill Gates, Mark Zuckerberg, plenty of names to choose from. And so, that I think it open discussions because it really encourages the fact that there isn’t a lot of Asian visibility. And then, also within the Asian representation that we do have, it actually enforces the model minority stereotype. Someone who is Asian American who typically is seen as nerdy or good at math.

Ying Li:
And specifically, an Asian American female, someone who was a little bit more quiet, respects elders, may not be seen as confident leaders. And so, that’s just like my two cents in this conversation. And I think we need to be better about… as a society on educating folks about the diverse experiences of Asian Americans, right?

Chris Hemphill:
Thank you for sharing that. And Ying, actually, we got a question in the audience about are we going to be discussing in careers in healthcare. And I know that your next question had that. But before jumping into that, I just wanted to say thank you to Eric J. Daza, for sharing some resources and reflections with regards to personal introspection, so thank you for that. And Ying, I’ll toss it to you for the healthcare specific question.

Ying Li:
Right. So, Ben, do you think that any of your experiences, particularly as an Asian American individual was specific to the industry that you have worked on, specifically, in the realm of, I guess, healthcare or being a tech?

Ben Chao:
Yeah, that’s a really good question, Ying. I think it’s actually really important to look at the demographic structure of leadership teams in these various industries. And I think considering that everyone… I’m assuming that most people who are on the stream are in healthcare, so they can parse out between being someone who’s at a payer, who’s at a health system, a delivery system, versus an innovator who’s on the provider side. So, maybe it’s Oscar, Oak Street Health or Carbon, right?

Ben Chao:
Versus being truly in healthcare tech, right? Or just more broader enterprise tech, right? And I think that actually as I went down that list from the proverbial left to right, right? Or top to bottom, I actually think that there are elements of traditional healthcare delivery systems that are actually not really all that diverse when you look at the c-suite and the board of director’s level, right? And I think that’s a history when you think about none profit organizations or even the profits, right?

Ben Chao:
The ways in which board members are added is that they’re nominated by incumbents, right? Or they’re selected in public elections, whatever it might be or shareholder elections. And so, when you think about that existing demographic, there is almost this self-perpetuating cycle of this insulation, right? That tends to select more for White men in that set of leadership, right? And then, of course, who is the group that ends up trying to find a CEO, right? It’s usually the board of directors.

Ben Chao:
And so, you have this flywheel that tends to be more challenging for others to penetrate. And so, I can’t speak for the tech side of things, I haven’t worked directly in the tech industry that I’ve partnered with several more, but my outside in perception. And I love the input from this [inaudible 00:23:40] team, is that, there may be a broader level of diversity, particularly as you’re relying on very technical talent.

Ben Chao:
I do think and I’ve observed that there is, I think, a bit of a unique spin for Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders who were providers, and then stepped into provider level leadership, where they may be more ubiquitous than administrative leadership. So, even for my role as a technology leader, I think that I benefit a little bit because from that stereotype of being someone who is quantitatively strong, who has an eye for detail, because that’s what delivering successful in technology is all about, right?

Ben Chao:
I think that being a hospital president having to work with medical staff, right? Or being a medical group leader, where I have to work with physicians who have opinions and who have quite a bit of influence in decision making, right? I think that there are some Asian American, APPI leaders in that space, but I haven’t met as many of them as I might in technology. So, I’ll pause there, but I do think that there’s a spectrum here with some interesting, I think trends.

Chris Hemphill:
And so, I want to dig into this a little bit more. Well, actually, at the same time, we got a really good question from Hai Nguyen, with regards to, hey, as leaders within these respective industries, what are some things to focus on to create an environment that fosters Asian Americans be able to speak up and go past that model minority myth? Priscilla or Ben-

Priscilla McCloskey:
Sure, yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a great question. So, thanks for the question. Ben even alluded to this earlier. I think a lot of making sure that you include people and ask them their opinions from everywhere, from in a meeting to before and after meetings, outside of that. I think involving people, talking to them one on one and getting them to speak up and speak their mind outside of the group setting so that they’re more comfortable inside the group setting.

Priscilla McCloskey:
I think just regular practices like that definitely help. And then, I think also, as leaders, we can encourage other people to ask for things that maybe… and again, Ben alluded this earlier, asking for things that they didn’t think about asking for, encouraging them to be confident in representing themselves. And to help them understand what their value is. And to help them, challenge them to think about their career path, and further down the road. I think all those things are really important.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And especially if we’re talking about Asian Americans. As Asian Americans, we can encourage and mentor other people in that way.

Chris Hemphill:
And same concept, Ben, just with regard to fostering the environment that allows a transcendence beyond that model minority myth.

Ben Chao:
Yeah, I genuinely think that it takes a lot of pulling people aside in those individual one-to-one conversations, I think that creates a lot of room for… to be honest, vulnerability, right? To be able to say, “Hey, I am in a similar situation.” I had people who pulled me aside, and I was lucky enough to have someone who said, “You know, I think that you should focus on these two or three things. And if they don’t work for you, in the next year, in the next couple of months, that’s fine. Let’s move on to something else.” Right?

Ben Chao:
But at least you tried it. I think that encouraging that once is the bonus for what works for that person is also quite critical. Because for instance, their mild maybe my inch, right? In terms of the level to which I asked for three or four new projects that are this next level of responsibility or investment, right? And so, helping people brainstorm to that, right? Whether it’s via networking or through seeking out mentorship, particularly with people who don’t look like them, I think is actually quite critical.

Ben Chao:
And personally, I loved your comment about… I think that people sometimes can criticize the meeting after the meeting. But in a case where you’re trying to create room for dialogue for someone who otherwise isn’t as predisposed to expressing themselves that way, I think that being that champion to say, “You know what, I’ve heard from other people too, that this is a concern that we have and actually, I very much agree with them.”

Ben Chao:
I think it’s okay to do that, as long as you’re finding the most streamlined approach to ensuring that other opinions were brought forth, right?
Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah. And then, maybe I’ll just add on to that. It doesn’t have to be, again, if we’re talking about the AAPI community, it doesn’t have to be an Asian person encouraging other Asian person, right? Anyone can encourage anyone who is maybe not speaking up or showing themselves to their full potential to speak up and advocate for themselves.

Ben Chao:
And this is where mentorship becomes really key, right? Because I think that sometimes we think of mentorship as a very high level, like, “This is how I took my career.” And like, “These are the things that I suggest you do, I really encourage you to read this book.” Sometimes actually, the currency by which we engage in that mentorship or that coaching is actually a really tactical level. So, there are times in which I will work with people with mentees who are emerging in their careers and say, “That very tactical level. I love this slide, it’s too detailed.”

Ben Chao:
“We need you to zoom out. And by the way, let’s practice how you would actually present this deliverable to the audience.” So, I think some of the… particularly when it comes around to how we build the perception or that brand of perceived soft skills, whether those are real or not, is important, right? Back to the point of, how well are you selling yourself? That all plays into it.

Chris Hemphill:
We also got a question from Kathleen, and I think it carries on the theme of things that people can do or things to focus on. And the question from Kathleen was around… well, first of all, congrats on getting where you are, Kathleen, in the triple minority leadership status. But I really, really appreciate you sharing that and hearing that from you. And what Kathleen has asked is to get to where you are to become [inaudible 00:29:59].

Chris Hemphill:
Hello to the dog, welcome on our stream. But what have you found that are your core strengths that have led to career success? And I think that’s a really helpful question because like anybody who’s starting out or looking to grow can start thinking through, “Hey, what are the strengths that work for Ben, Ying, Priscilla?

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah. Maybe I’ll dive in because he mentioned that the triple minority. So, yeah, it’s really interesting, we started this conversation when you invited me, I had to take a little time to think about myself as an Asian leader. And I couldn’t really do that without thinking of myself as a woman, because I do strongly identify as being a woman in leadership. And at times more so than being an Asian on leadership. But there not obviously, a lot of women in leadership. And then, women Asians in leadership, Asian Americans are even fewer.

Priscilla McCloskey:
But I think a lot of what we were talking about earlier, at least, I can speak for myself, personally. I think a lot of it was overcoming some of those cultural stereotypes and the things in my own upbringing of thinking myself as a leader. I think at some point in my life and my career, I realized that I should be a leader. And that why not? Why not me? Why all these other White males? And so, to me, that was actually the biggest thing to get past.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And, yeah, because a number of Asians may have achieved well in school, and so on. And you may have thought of yourself as one way, but really just thinking, like, “Hey, maybe I am the best person to do a certain job.” At least that’s been my experience. And then, I think always having a good group of, not only a network at work, but friends and whole support network. People in your personal life who helped foster and guide you and encourage you to go down a certain path.

Priscilla McCloskey:
That certainly helped me a lot is, just having those conversations about where I want to go and what I want to do. And then, figuring out tactically, how do you get there?

Chris Hemphill:
And Ben, your thoughts on the same question?

Ben Chao:
Yeah. Personally, I couldn’t agree with you more, in terms of having that peer-to-peer network, or that set of mentors who gave you those words of affirmation, to say, “No, you’re on the dock, keep going.” Right? It was huge, particularly, in grad school for me personally. Because I think that I needed that reassurance of, “No, you’re on the right track.” And being someone who is, I think, quite self-critical and I’m sure many of us on the line are.

Ben Chao:
It was important to let go of… and sometimes the greatest weakness actually is trying to ferret out what your weaknesses, right? So, I think such a loop on our personal level. But I think that one of the pieces that I’ve always found to be really useful is to… it’s a book that my Dad actually gave me when I was, I think, in junior high or high school. And it was Carole Blake’s book on mindset, right? And I think that one was huge.

Ben Chao:
Because what it did is the sole focus is really on the rewarding journey that people feel when they work on something that they’re inherently uncomfortable with. And then, to be perfectly frank, it’s a challenge, and there’s a line that everyone has to draw around that. But for me, I think in junior high, it was public speaking and getting up in front of room, and having attention to myself, right? And high school is around being comfortable in my own skin.

Ben Chao:
In college, is around letting go of details, and not focusing on this one little box in the corner, but the bigger picture, right? And then, in grad school, it was around business skills, like finance and accounting that I didn’t really have anything of, right? And so, I think that if there’s that one piece in my toolkit that I’ve always carried with me its, what’s the one thing that will make you unstoppable tomorrow?

Ben Chao:
And go iterate on it, because the moment that you’re used to being uncomfortable, is when I think you do actually have quite…you built versatility, right? The other thing that I think, one of my mentors in grad school always shared with me was, I would rather hire someone to be a mile wide and an inch deep than be a mile deep and an inch wide. I’m looking for that level of versatility.

Ben Chao:
And I think that whether you’re at a five-person startup or at a 20,000-person health system, people who are versatile can be plug and play into various situations will always pan out. So, I think it’s okay now, especially if you’re early in your career to say, “Yes, I am a specialist in HIM. Or I write code on the back-end in this language,” right? But then, the question that I have for you is, where you want to be in the next couple of years, right?

Ben Chao:
And what’s the one skill set that you need to build to get there? And then, work tirelessly to do that. And it’s hard. And I think people are okay drawing that line. And the one thing that I will say is, that sometimes, bad managers are the people who are not willing to tell you what that one strength is or what that one weaknesses. So, that’s usually the question I’ve asked my leaders time and time again, is what’s the one thing I can do differently to make me unstoppable?

Ben Chao:
And I think that’s where really good relationships come into play. So, most recently, I was most recently the director at MultiCare. The last conversation I had with my boss was, “I want an executive coach. I want somebody who can teach me how to balance the time,” Right? For home life, how to make sure that I’m letting go at the right level of smart trust, instead of blind trust, to be able to delegate. And I think that just recognizing that is the biggest step for me.

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah, you bring up some really good points, Ben, especially the being open to understanding where your weaknesses are, where you need to grow. And having that continual open conversation with your manager, your peers, and other people in the company. I think that’s really important and continually learning from that. Because if you’re not willing to do that, then you’re not going to be able to challenge and expand yourself.

Priscilla McCloskey:
Depending on your special function or industry, I mean, I just love the continual growth of listening to different podcasts and reading lots of books and things like that. And trying to take those different practices and then applying them to what I do every day. Yeah, it’s really important to continually grow and look for ways to expand your skill set.

Chris Hemphill:
So, love the focus and the focus on learning and personal growth as well. Sadly, we’re coming to the 45-minute mark. But still, there was a question that I was really eager to get to, which is like, have you ever felt like you can just bring your whole self to the workplace, like being who you are in the workplace? Have you ever felt that’s been something that you’ve had to stifle? Basically, either I’ll be myself, or I can’t progress?

Chris Hemphill:
Or being myself might cause me to fail at progressing up the leadership ladder or getting to goals that I want to? Has there ever been a feeling of not being able to bring your whole self to your work environment? Priscilla?

Priscilla McCloskey:
Sure, yeah. Yeah, that’s a really interesting question. I think here again, when I think about myself, probably the woman side might take over a little bit more here. Being a mom with kids, sometimes, yeah, I have in the past, worried that people might think I wasn’t able to do my job as well because I have kids. Or because of these other things to handle, which is, of course, not true. There are lots of very capable working mothers out there.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And I would say one thing that I’ve really appreciated, particularly at SymphonyRM and other places, is just the fact that people are very open about their home lives and their other priorities. And so, I think it’s important to have an environment where that’s welcome, where you can be yourself at work all the time. And your life outside of work is welcome inside of work. And it’s recognized that work is not 100% of your life.

Ben Chao:
To be vulnerable for a moment. I think that the time in which I’ve felt a lot I had to hold back the most, I think was when George Floyd was murdered. And Monday morning, the week after, for the first couple hours, I felt as though it was business as usual which felt inherently wrong to me. And it’s something that I think a lot of people ended up raising their hands and called out. And I think we move relatively quickly after that.

Ben Chao:
And then, the second was after the Atlanta shootings, is that Chris you mentioned earlier. And that’s when I felt really deep sense of internal rage. And I had to bite and just hold back even though I didn’t want to. So, I think I had to find the right people to confide in that with, because there was real pain associated with that, right? Saying, “What can we do? Can we do more? Can we not make this into by committee thing? Can we actually say something?” Right?

Ben Chao:
And so, I think that those are times in which the last thing that you want to do is feel as though you lose credibility. Or you let your emotions show in a way that isn’t well received by your peers. But I think, that there’s a way in which I did have to pull back and I said, “You know what, I think that this is a real issue that we have a better opportunity to talk about.” But that’s a very corporate sentence instead of, “This is a horrible thing that’s happened, and we need to do more.” Right?

Ben Chao:
And so, I think that I’m getting more comfortable with being more blunt with people about that, when there are times when you feel that internal rage or struggle. And I think there are times in which I didn’t get positive feedback for not being bold enough, for not necessarily assimilating to business culture in a certain sense. And I did have to hold back and just listen and take it. And thankfully, I think that I’m surrounded by people who I can be more of myself around.

Ben Chao:
And unfortunately, I think that as you have progressively senior roles, I think that you can afford to have a little more latitude to really speak your mind. And so, what I’ve tried to do now is try to create their cover and the safety where people who may have more entry level roles or middle management can have someone to go to and feel vulnerable around to do the blocking and tackling at an organizational level.

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah, I think that’s a great point is making sure that if you are in a position of leadership, that you create an environment where people feel they can be honest about what’s going on at home or things they need to handle. And that you’ll still support and respect them, and know that they’re going to do a good job. And that you care about the whole person, not just the work person.

Chris Hemphill:
So, we’re actually coming up against… well, first of all, I have to tell you, the fact that you brought up the George Floyd in Atlanta shootings, I felt really similarly, especially after the George Floyd shooting was like a firing off the powder keg. But then, just over time, being in Atlanta myself when that happened, that hit really hard too. And thank you for being vulnerable and bringing that up because there could be a lot of people on this call.

Chris Hemphill:
Or a lot of people watching this, who might have felt that by bringing something up about it, they would have ruffled the wrong feathers or something like that. And we need to be fostering an environment where people can talk about how these very real things hit them. Like, keeping business separate from personal, I personally consider everything to be personal. Like, we bring ourselves to business and that’s just a truth we can’t really avoid.

Chris Hemphill:
So, it’s best if we foster an environment where we can be open about it. That said, there’s a couple more questions. I see, Patrick in the chat, just wanted to make sure everybody was good to continue for about five, six more minutes? Okay. So, Ying, I’ll throw that next question at you then.

Ying Li:
Yeah, sure. I guess, from knowing what you know now, what would you tell your past selves, who was just starting out their career?

Ben Chao:
I wish that I had thought more to do two things. One, sample from the buffet. Go experience something, and if you don’t like it, that’s totally okay. Like, people make pivots all the time, and sometimes super successful people are there just because of luck and happenstance. You need to have the work ethic and the skill set there. But for a lot of people, they happen to be surrounded by great people who help bring them up in a great situation that really helped them get to that next level.

Ben Chao:
So, there’s that balance there, and I don’t want to undersell that. And I think that what I wished I had done more earnestly, I think, was ask and you shall receive. I think, I’ve mentioned that a couple times, right? But when you think about the number of great leaders who have written their own job description, right? Or just ask them, “Buddy, can I just sit in your office and help you out however you want for 10 bucks an hour to get their foot in the door?”

Ben Chao:
There are the ways in which people move into leadership positions are either self-created or they start in a dialogue. They start over coffee, right? Or an email or a LinkedIn message. So, I would so, so, so encourage all of you who are on the line, if you’re looking at making a leap or if you’re looking into making that next step as a leader or as a manager, do what the rest of the job market does. Network, build relationships, ask people.

Ben Chao:
Because I think that people join people, they don’t join companies and they don’t join in an open job requisition on a site. I often say to some friends of mine, “You know for whatever reason, my job didn’t exist tomorrow,” right? I would call the two or three people that I think very highly of, who I deeply respect, admire and look up to and say, “I don’t care what level it is. I just want to come work for you.”

Ben Chao:
And I think that is often a much more compelling and powerful story than, “Oh, there was a job that was open and I applied to it.” And I think that there’s a lot more opportunity for you to write your own story that way, than at the more traditional sense.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And maybe to build on what Ben said, a lot of times, your job description might say one thing, but you can find opportunities within your current company to contribute and to learn and to grow yourself in other ways. And so, I would just look for those opportunities, like if you want to go into a different area that you’re in that you’re not, maybe you try to ask the person who leads it there, “Hey, can I do a little bit of work in this to get some experience?”

Priscilla McCloskey:
Just find ways to learn and to branch out, that’s really a good way to do things rather than completely change companies and find a new job, which can be harder sometimes.

Ben Chao:
And I will say that there are specific career tracks or programs that some companies have, that are specifically enabled to wire you that way to almost sample from the buffet for a year. And get paid to basically learn and explore the organization and figure out what that real job looks like. I’m personally very lucky to have been able to do something like that through the administrative fellowship at MultiCare. There are a lot of health systems that do that.

Ben Chao:
So, if any of you are about to finish undergrad or finishing graduate school, and are interested in that pathway, it is one. And I believe that there are other “leadership training,” or development programs that enable that. One thing that I will say is unique in MultiCare, this is my last plug, I promise, is we recognize that, yes, there’s that path for people who are coming out of graduate school. There’s also should be that path or that other opportunity to get that same level of exposure.

Ben Chao:
If you’ve already completed your degree, but are now at MultiCare, right? So, for some of our leaders, they’re an RN who’s getting an MSN, or want to be a nurse manager and getting that master’s degree, we want them to apply to what’s called, an internal administrative fellowship. So, it’s the exact same process, just different sourcing pool. Because we think that there’s definitely an emerging leader among us. So, I think that if there are programs or places in which you can find that uniqueness to really freely navigate a complex system, all the better.

Chris Hemphill:
Thank you. And so, just a couple more questions, we got one from Patrick Damaso, which was regarding the model minority myth and how it might impact subsets of the overall AAPI population. So, he was wondering, if that downplays struggles within those subsets as well? Or you might have thoughts on how?

Priscilla McCloskey:
Yeah. I mean, I’m not sure if it was you, Chris, or someone else from our DEI community shared that information about the breakdown of the AAPI community and their salary compared to other salaries nationally, but that was pretty eye-opening. I do think that happens that people can tend to lump Asian Americans all into one group, and then think of the stereotype of someone who does well in that, and then, she’s really highly.

Priscilla McCloskey:
And obviously, it’s a very broad and diverse community. And there are a number of people who come over for very different reasons into the US. Have very different socio-economic backgrounds, and a lot who are really struggling. So, I do think that is a real challenge.

Ben Chao:
Yeah, I think it’s important to also try to catch people when they try to say, “Oh, we have a diverse leadership team. We hired Ben into that role.” That is something that I think is important to point out because I think it’s an opportunity. And there’s a way to do gently of saying, “Well, there’s a very different story for how…” Yeah, so his point of why people came the United States, right? Someone who came because of economic opportunity.

Ben Chao:
And someone who came because they had to, right? They needed to survive. And so, I think illustrating just how much that creates that chain reaction, right? To where people are today, whether it’s through, intergenerational effects or the economic opportunity of how somebody grew up. It’s really important for people to be able to reflect and sit back on that, particularly throughout that interviewing process, right?

Ben Chao:
So, if it makes a claim, like, “Yeah, that person didn’t seem as confident, they seem super nervous. Why is that?” Let’s think for a little bit about what their personal story is, and did you actually bother to understand their personal story? In fact, I didn’t [crosstalk 00:49:34].

Chris Hemphill:
To finish out the conversation, we were thinking that… maybe if you could think to a time where someone has helped you or has been a good ally, or maybe there’s something that you wish somebody that you’re working with, would have done to be a good ally that’s not in the AAPI community. So, I’m just curious about… and we can go round robin on this one. What can people do? Or what should people think about to be better allies?

Priscilla McCloskey:
I can start. So, well, interesting question. I am not sure if you’re asking about an ally, in which way specifically, career or not? I will say on the personal side of things, there was a friend who reached out after the Atlanta shootings and just wanted to check in. Well, actually, between the Atlanta shootings and all the crimes in San Francisco and all over the US against elderly Asian people. And she just sent a note that said, “Are you okay? Just wanted to see, just thinking about you.”

Priscilla McCloskey:
She’s not Asian, she’s White. But I think, just acknowledging, going back to the bring your whole self to work points. Just acknowledging that people may be carrying around some of those things day-to-day is really helpful, whether you’re Asian or not. And I think that is helpful to say, “Hey, we’re here to support you. We understand these things are going on.” I think that’s always helpful.

Chris Hemphill:
And Ben?

Ben Chao:
My suggestion is to both show vulnerability and then reward it. I think that creating vulnerability in our relationship often require somebody to go first, right? And that is a signal to that other person, “It’s okay for you to be your true self with me,” right? It’s okay for you to tell me, “This is the one thing that really freaks me out.” Or that, “I don’t feel comfortable doing.” Right? And the moment that you see that, I wouldn’t push past or tell them to get over it.

Ben Chao:
I would actually say, “Thank you for sharing that with me, and trusting me with that information. Here’s how you and I can work hand in hand together to make that work.” So, even in Priscilla’s example of just getting that texts, “Are you okay?” To me, that’s actually showing vulnerability, right? By saying, “I genuinely care about you beyond just the person who does x, y, z function at work.” Right? And so, I think that there are a lot of… I think AAPI careers out there who are looking to grow their career to the next level.

Ben Chao:
And they’re looking for that degree of mentorship. And sometimes they don’t want to burden you by asking for that time, or maybe they are fearful being told, “No,” whatever that is. I think that getting down to that individual level of seeing each other as just people, instead of whatever your title is, carries a lot of weight and a lot of meaning. And people will follow great leaders when they see that that level of vulnerability.

Chris Hemphill:
And, Ying, would you like to share some thoughts on that as well?

Ying Li:
Oh, yeah, sure. Just hopping over what both Ben and Priscilla have said. I think just being seen is I think important. Having also a really good support system to support in what you want to do in terms of like, personal life and career. For me, I’ve been really lucky to have fantastic mentors who’ve supported me throughout my career, and also personal journey. So, just having that, I think mentorship, was really… I think, it helped me push me to where I am today.

Ying Li:
And that also allowed me to… just seeing that my mentor, who was actually an Asian woman, like advocate for herself, that allowed me to say, “Hey, if she could advocate for herself, I could probably do that too. I mean, what’s stopping me from putting myself out there, getting what I want in terms of my career?” So, I thought that was a really important input for me personally, that helped me to be where I am today. Thanks, Chris.

Chris Hemphill:
Appreciate that, and appreciate you. Folks, Ben, Ying, Priscilla, I can’t thank you enough for coming out here and being vulnerable in having this conversation. And thank you for the folks that stuck with us for this conversation too. And we’re asking questions, because I felt like, “Wow, this might be some really difficult subject matter to cover. And people might not feel comfortable expressing these.”

Chris Hemphill:
But I think that there was some good conversation and comments back and forth. So, appreciate everybody who has come and shared with us today. We’ll start wrapping things up here. And again, there’s a model minority myth, there’s pervasive myths that, as the conversation has demonstrated, are causing real and serious harm to people. Actually, next week, we’re going to focus in on additional disparities, particularly, around the veteran community people that have served in our military forces.

Chris Hemphill:
Next week, we’ll have Dr. Evelyn Lewis, who leads the Veteran Health and Wellness Foundation. And has been making some major strides, major moves in making healthcare resources available. She was a navy doctor for 25 years. And just based on her experiences after she’s gotten out of the institution, she’s wanting to make sure that veterans have access to the way… to navigate their care effectively.

Chris Hemphill:
So, we’ll be discussing that next week and appreciate everybody who has stayed for this conversation. Hopefully, we usually do this on a Friday, but today’s Thursday, so just going into the end of the week, hopefully that this has been a good time to sit back, and think about these particular issues.

Ben Chao:
Thanks [crosstalk 00:56:11].

Priscilla McCloskey:
Thanks.

Ying Li:
All right, thank you.