Why Your Patients Don’t Believe You

Webinar

Featuring

Tidal Health

Description

We've seen it happen harder than ever this year - consumers often mistrust vital healthcare communications. This isn't just related to the pandemic, it happens as people research their conditions, as they're treated, and as they manage their own care.


Why don't health care brands and providers carry the authority they need for patients to act?


Bryan Cush, CEO of healthcare marketing agency, Tidal Health, will discuss their extensive research on these issues. His company has formed clear language guidance on healthcare authority by mining insights from hundreds of thousands of consumer searches and journeys.


Key learnings from this discussion:

  • Barriers to trust
  • Research on healthcare consumer expectations
  • Communicating with authority
Bryan Cush

Bryan Cush

President & Co-Founder
Tidal Health Group

Tidal Health

Chris Hemphill

VP, Applied AI & Growth
Actium Health

1

Transcript


Chris Hemphill:
Oh, that's the fastest ever, it got started really fast. I'm really excited. Hello healthcare. We are now live and excited to bring a data-backed marketing communications conversation to you. For folks that listen to the podcast, this is what we call Hello Healthcare Unplugged. And what the focus is here is taking a topic within healthcare, within healthcare marketing, patient engagement, outreach, IT, etc. We're always looking for intersections where these different functions within healthcare strategy intersect with data. And it's actually really exciting to be talking with Bryan Cush because he really embodies that mentality with his firm, Tidal Health.

Chris Hemphill:
We're going to get deeper into it. You came here because of the title, Your Patients Don't Trust You. Well... Why Your Patients Don't Trust You. We're going to get deep into that. We're going to talk about the data that his firm has uncovered as to the what and the why and how that works. And then we're going to get deeper into, okay, well, given this kind of troublesome scenario, well, what are some different things that we can do? How can we transform into communicating in a way that helps drive that trust and authority among patients. But enough of that, just to a quick introduction to Bryan. He founded this firm, Tidal Health about eight years ago. And the really interesting thing that he brings to the table is it's a marketing-oriented firm, but he brings a finance and engineering background, as well as a music background to the picture. But Bryan, just wanted to give you the opportunity to let me stop yapping and go ahead and introduce yourself.

Bryan Cush:
No, thanks so much. I appreciate you inviting me on the show, Chris. I think I'm just excited to talk to you as well. So yeah, our firm's Tidal Health Group. We're based out of New York. We've been in business 2013, and really focus in healthcare marketing and development. But like you mentioned, really from a unique lens that, my background's in information systems. My partner's an engineer, so we always lead with that. That really is pervasive and stems to all our team members, even of our creative team members of having really analytical brain towards everything we create.

Chris Hemphill:
And that kind of leads me to another question, before we get into it. Just curious; what was the gap that you saw back in 2013 that inspired you to start this firm?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, really funny; I always make the joke on a personal note, I worked in Fortune 50 Finance and just hated it. So started to discover... Was self-taught in, actually web development. And then New York is a really unique model with healthcare that there's kind of a subset of out-of-network billing. And we started to work with a few agencies here that were billing specialists in and out of network and saw that there was this treasure trove of data between ICD and CPT codes that we really speaking differently and using different terminology than ultimately what that consumer researched to make that healthcare decision. So we tried to look at it almost as a lexicon and database of the business of healthcare, how they were using that terminology, but then create, could we create a consumer lexicon and how they spoke about the business of healthcare and map them together?

Chris Hemphill:
Excellent. Well, great to hear that and love the background that you shared on that. We're going to get into it, but before we do, I just want to let the folks in the audience know that we're just two people talking up here and we'd like you to be involved in that conversation too. So if you haven't done LinkedIn Live before, just get comfortable, say, just tell us where you're from or tell us what you're expecting to hear today or anything that you'd like to learn about. And if there's anything that you want Bryan or myself to dig in deeper on, if there's any questions that you have; that's why we take on this format. We don't want to be just two talking heads all the way across the nation. We'd rather it be a conversation that involves you. So that's why we're using this LinkedIn Live format. And I'm excited to hear what you have to say.

Chris Hemphill:
But just to start digging into it, Brian, what I wanted to get back in... What I wanted to focus on is really, what is the focus of your work in healthcare right now? Can you give us a little background on that?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. As marketers, I think we fall in to two categories. The way we think about it is acquisition and authority. Acquisition, I think everyone understands in terms of acquiring new patients to our clients and health brands. But then authority is really, how do we take a subjective topic like authority and create an objective formula to defining it. So everyone knows about the concept of misinformation and how we're trying to meet the algorithm of Google and ultimately be the authority to the trillions of healthcare searches online. Can we reverse engineer and really put the inputs into your information online to prove that you're a true authority?

Chris Hemphill:
And to zoom in a little bit on that, you mentioned searches and things like that, could you talk a little bit about this algorithm, this approach that you're taking?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. The way we think about it is, it's the largest category of search online; health related searches. There's trillions each year. It's really funny is Google in particular has come out and really stated the eight or 10 authorities of source that they work with in terms of pulling health related information. It's the common ones that people know like Mayo Clinic, NIH, Cleveland Clinic, CDC; but ultimately there's so much opportunity to be the voice of authority that those 10 brands can't answer every health related search. So we try and think about how do those consumers search in the language, and then ultimately, how do you present yourself as the authority within Google's algorithm? I mean, they've come out and there's multiple patents and trademarks that they actually now pre-select a section of sites when they think that the search is health related and of a certain barrier of authority. So if you're not in that pool already, you are literally missing the opportunity to make sure you're seen as a result for trillions of searches.

Chris Hemphill:
So authority in this context isn't just whether or not somebody trusts the content that you're reading and trust the voice that you're using; but it's also the type of authority, the type of communication that gets viewed favorably by Google's constantly changing search approaches.

Bryan Cush:
Correct. Yeah, I mean we're kind of feeding the beast in that sense and we're being an authority to multiple different end users.

Chris Hemphill:
So as you're looking at these searches and you're looking at this data, with regards to how people are conducting their searches and seeking information on healthcare; can you talk about some findings or some discoveries that you've made during this process?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, for sure. I mean one of the biggest ones is we categorized millions of healthcare searches and broke it down really into four buckets, but ultimately two. And it's really one of our kind of staple data points that we talk about, that of all health related searches, the largest category is symptoms and conditions and specialties, roughly 80% of those searches. And the simplest way we think about it is those are the layman terms that people are searching. That's your true authority in the sense that that's a different language than what you speak. And the clinical side is the 20% is the brand related. So you have to map between what you call yourself and what you do against what the consumer calls yourself and what they do.

Chris Hemphill:
So these brand related searches and the layman's related searches and things like that; what are some of the... Just based on those behaviors, what are some of the actions that you're seeing your clients or health systems take?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I think one of the biggest actions is trying to consider mapping that clinical language. So when we think about one of the recent studies we did with a partner is we took the concept of the septal perforation as a condition. When you look at the clinical language, like the business of medicine, there's only about 16 different varieties of terminology around how they diagnose or ultimately call that condition. And we went through a really kind of deep process to understand what were all the inbound channels to where someone could ultimately request or book care for this condition and we mapped back 1400 variants of terms that ultimately led to this condition and then seeking care. So not only from a quantifiable standpoint, that's a huge difference of just a variety of language. You also look at it that that number is continually growing. So this isn't just a, you make this decision and you do this research and you realize, but people's understanding of their care. And ultimately what they're suffering from is always iterating and this is really just a cyclical process.

Chris Hemphill:
Now we've just run into a little bit of a technical difficulty. If everybody could give me just one second, we're making sure that we're properly live here. One second. There are some people that weren't able to access the event. All right, I think we've covered an aspect of it, but just wanted to make sure everybody was able to log in and see the conversation. But apparently we're definitely live here. So with what you're learning about these consumer behaviors and the way that people are conducting their searches, why is healthcare suffering from such a big gap when it comes to trust and authority?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I think there's a lot of things is kind of break through on that, but often there's such a traditional mindset that really the business of medicine was the barrier of authority. And the way we think about it is that the inside medicine, and I say inside medicine of just those that work within the research side, the things that they ultimately define as authority don't align one to one to the things that the consumers of authority are. So things like publications, grants, affiliations, titles, RVU's, research; those are the things that often are seen as authority.

Bryan Cush:
But ultimately the consumers of, either don't know, or look at and define authority differently. So there's this holistic view that you need to kind of break down barriers within your brand and your system and your business to take in every consideration of that consumer's interactions. So we think one of the two biggest things that are factors just around reputation, which probably are commonly known, but are just scheduling, cost, reputation. Those are the categories where the care is always important, but it's one piece to the larger conversation from the consumer. So really breaking down those silos, I think is still just not in kind of today's vernacular and health systems are becoming more and more aware of that.

Chris Hemphill:
So we see health systems becoming more and more aware of that, and you spoke about this breakdown that folks were seeing. What's at stake here? One big aspect that I've paid a lot of attention to over the past year is kind of the infodemic around COVID-19 communications and people's response and lack of authority there. But what would you say is at stake for health systems that don't pivot to this more, to meeting this authority here?

Bryan Cush:
That's probably the largest, I mean is misinformation. I mean it's no surprise that they have a patent that they preselect now, the domains and websites that they allow the algorithm to look through for these authoritative topics; is misinformation has got to be number one. As we dig in underneath that, I think on a more human side of it is lack of, or even delay of diagnosis. It's one of the things that really gets our team excited is some of our clients we work with on mapping, and the number of clinical interactions that our clients have... The patients of our clients have before coming to that specialist. And if you can get that information and ultimately an intervention to that care faster, we were quantifiably reducing the healthcare interactions that someone had. We literally are showing a reduction of unnecessary surgeries, unnecessary treatments, unnecessary interactions if you find the proper care faster.

Chris Hemphill:
Gosh, I'd really like to dig a little bit deeper into that. One thing that we've debated on the show, or discussed on the show over time, has been the marketer's role and communication's role in actual healthcare delivery. So when we talk about that quantifiable difference, when people get the right information or believe the right information that they need to engage their care, would you be able to dig down more specifically into what that difference is? And that kind of helps us highlight what's at stake there.

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, certainly. I love talking on it. It's that concept of kind of the doctor Google question, that often when you talk to practitioners and doctors, it frustrates them that their patients are going on to Google and doing all that research, and they see it really as the enemy. And we really try and flip that script, that if you can get the information to them in the language and the light that you want and get it to them faster, you're ultimately delivering better care. And on a quantifiable sense, yeah, it's a women's health brand that we work with that they're very, very subspecialize. But on average, they were seeing their patients come in with four and a half healthcare interactions when we started with them almost seven years ago, and that number's dropped to three. And those interactions were sometimes unnecessary hysterectomies, sometimes unnecessary injection series, unnecessary, just medical visits that were then affecting the mental health of the patient.

Chris Hemphill:
So, what were some of the changes that were made? Like we have this data, we have this understanding of preferred communication patterns and what's going to resonate with our patient? What kind of changes were actually made in the communications to drive those increased interactions?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I mean, from the consumer side, it's heavily just the language part of it, that we started to develop new market processes, where each city is different at an education level of their awareness of these conditions and disease dates, and ultimately the specialist that is preferentially treating them. And then even on the provider side that they're on the ground and physician liaison staff and understanding how educated or uneducated the medical community is and which specialties they need to go to that ultimately are housing these patients that they didn't know best where to refer to.

Chris Hemphill:
And while you were talking, we got a comment that I like from Lisa Coleman; misinformation and all communications need to factor in. Patients don't know what they don't know. So yes, completely agree that the provider must provide the correct online tool and narrative for care. Thank you, Lisa, for that. I thought that was really well worded and really fits into kind of the theme about where we're going with the next question; which is, again, I like getting into... So we've identified the problem and you've talked about these changes and communications and strategy and process. We know that it's not enough just to identify these problems. What are some other examples of health systems that you've seen that had challenges with their outreach or communication or authority? What were kind of the steps that you've commonly seen or helped guide them to turn these scenarios around?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I could speak on one that I'm think I'm more just a fan of too, and I've gotten the pleasure to speak with, is Zeev Neuwirth down at Atrium Health, and he wrote Reframing Healthcare, and then it's really, it's a customer first mentality. And that's what he leads with that it's the healthcare itself needs to extend what it sees as the episode of care. And that's really the way we explain it, is that even as a data background, I even argue that this whole conversation around data ownership, your health records extends past just what we're defining it. So even how you're interacting online and ultimately even the data that we collect to me is a fact of really your health data. So that customer first mentality and breaking kind of the reaches of what you think that a clinical interaction is outside of just the physical care. That I really love, just his presentation, kind of how he's leading with breaking down, kind of the barriers of how people saw marketing within healthcare. That it's really a communication problem that needs to be addressed first.

Chris Hemphill:
And Lisa had a follow up question, I think kind of related to what we were just talking about, but examples of health systems that are doing this right and getting the right approach here?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, outside of Zeev's group and down in the Carolinas, we're here in Manhattan. And it's interesting, and I don't say this cheekly, I don't think anyone across the board is doing it completely right. But a few of the systems, and we've partnered with one here in New York, with a few of you and of our private practice clients, the Northwell system in New York, that there's a lot of work to really internally bring those teams together. When the doctors themselves are now getting into and understanding that their care is outside of just the physical aspect. That's a lot of groundwork to bring those departments together. That marketing and communications isn't just one directional information. And that was kind of the historical view of it, is that you just did the acquisition and that patient went through and then there was no learning on how a patient's interaction to then readjust your marketing communications. And I think that awareness now that that's got to be cyclical and not one direction is really just been a fundamental shift in the last few years.

Chris Hemphill:
I got to say, Brian, well, one thing that I really like about this conversation is the fact that we came in, we were initially talking about marketing, but then taking it from a finance and engineering perspective. But now that we had this question from Lisa, we're kind of bringing that clinical question into the fold; the types of communications and modifications, how that impacts clinicians as well. I think that one thing that a lot of folks would be interested in, especially those who are possibly in marketing and trying to figure out the best ways to work with clinicians; what are... You're conducting all these findings and things like that, what are you seeing as ways to bridge the gap between clinicians and marketing to help get that support for changing these communication and marketing efforts?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I mean, there's some of the, just really human side of it, is we'll sit down and just Google the doctor's name. Everyone uses Google that knows is that. And I think it sometimes has this light bulb effect that this drastically has an effect, not only on the business of you, but the personal authority of you online. That you're doing so much physical work around research and clinical trials and outcomes and publications. And that traditionally is held in more of this internal silo of the business of medicine. That we try and turn that script and flip it upside down. These things need to be led with. Your digital authority is just as important as your physical authority. So why would you hold those things to the physical world?

Chris Hemphill:
So in a lot of these scenarios, on the business end, there might be a lot more familiarity with what these searches look like and what these communication patterns look like. And when it comes to getting physician buy-in and clinician buy-in, outside of coming up with the most advanced and complicated reports that say, there's this much correlation between these words and all that; outside of that, it's just sitting down and having a conversation and showing a familiar technology. Huh?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. Sometimes my quantitative brain needs to just get rocked in the head and it's like we're still all people at the end of the day. We're connecting people with care. These are people that are doctors providing care. So it's sometimes you just have to have that really simple connection that I'm not going to go in there and never understand the nuance of what they do as a doctor, but you can find those bridges of understanding. Like everybody understands social media, everybody understands reputation, everybody understands search, because we use those regardless of what world we're in. So if you show that real world and application first, then it makes it a lot easier to kind of then walk into the quantitative approach that we have to take to it.

Chris Hemphill:
Great. So that's a... Y'all write this down. That's a quick lesson he just gave you in data storytelling; is that while the reports and while all the quantitative stuff can be really cool and powerful, it's still not going to connect unless there's some kind of story, some kind of really specific element there.

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. I mean, then I get into the kind of geeky quantitative side and we use schema architecture a lot and, to me, that's just a gold mine of a blueprint to try and reverse engineer the AI algorithms. And we're always kind of releasing feature sets under our CMS system. And one that recently resonated the most was the idea of case studies. That for all health brands, reputation's always a hurdle. Gathering reviews is just perpetually a difficult thing. But case studies for us allow a different touch point that the doctors can then just take their layman distillation of a treatment of a patient and give us really a reputation touchpoint in a different language. And what was crazy for us is we were running all these AB tests around trying to lead with reputation in the traditional sense, with a lot of the advertising communications we did. And when we gave the option to read case studies, it was a four to one ratio that people were interacting with case studies more than the traditional reputation and reviews that we commonly know.

Chris Hemphill:
Interesting. And that kind of... There's this path that I'm thinking about, which is, if you come up and talk to me about; hey, we need to make sure that the reading level of our content matches with that of our audience and we want to make sure that we're hitting these specific details in this way. Intuitively, that sounds like... Yeah, I would agree to that. But have there been scenarios, and talk to us about, because I don't want anybody going into it with any naivete; what are some pockets of persistence that people might find? Intuitively, it just sounds so sensible to me that you, duh, but has there been resistance to any of these efforts?

Bryan Cush:
Oh, a hundred percent. I mean, on the qualitative side is like, we all have egos at the end of the day, too. And especially in the medical world, I'll say it, there's doctors that maybe are really truly the authority. And I think the traditional marketing communication world is that kind of field of dreams. Like let's lead with the doctors, let's lead with the brand, let's lead with the new technology, the new surgical arm. But ultimately, that person is just suffering a very human real problem. They know what this is limiting them from in their day to day. They don't know that this is the doctor I need, or this is the robotic arm that I need to solve that problem. So that, and it's the qualitative sense; a lot of our creative team will butt up against that. That's that consumer first mentality; that you need to lead with the consumer first, not who you are first. And then the data we use behind that is that 80/20 number. There's millions and millions and more people that know what you do than who you are, simply put.

Chris Hemphill:
Great. So it sounds like a big area where people might resist that kind of traditional mindset where, oh, if I'm a marketer, I'm talking about myself, I'm talking about my brand. But it goes back to that 80/20 conversation where 80% of what people are looking for is not about you, it's about what you can possibly do for them.

Bryan Cush:
Correct. And that's the consumer mentality and why consumer is the right word and not patient.

Chris Hemphill:
Excellent. Well, and thank... Again, to the folks out there commenting, you guys are fuel to this conversation. It's just really fun to interact, so thanks for the shout out Amy. So I'm curious about... I know we're coming up on time, but I have a couple more questions left. I mean, honestly, I have a lot more questions, but I have to choose two. But lessons learned; you've been conducting these experiences for a very long time now and I feel like there's probably a lot out there, a lot of work to be done. That's probably why you're speaking at HCIC and communicating on this podcast. But what are some lessons that you've picked up on, from on these experiences, that people should be thinking about and maybe can even turn around and do something starting Monday next week?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, I think the biggest one we always preach is lead with your physical authority. There's always this question of, "Well, what material do we have to communicate and market us as an authority?" And there's usually this gold mine of information of either the treatments, the reputation, the case studies, but then in the very traditional sense of just the events that they're speaking at with; the publications, the research, the outcomes. That data, again, is usually siloed into what we call the business of healthcare, where that should be led with. Those are the things that define you as an authority that ultimately is going to break down that trust hurdle. That when that consumer is in that decision mode, they're now fully trusting that you are the leader and the trusted authority on this topic. That for us is again, that flipping that script, that this information should flow in two directions. Marketing isn't just passing patients into your system. Your system needs to understand what you're doing to be an authority and bring that back into your communications and marketing.

Chris Hemphill:
And that kind of leads to another question if you're going to act and there's this information that's been siloed off; anything that you'd focus on measuring or monitoring, as a part of any kind of transition that someone would make out as a result to this?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah, as a marketer, the biggest thing we look at is organic growth. The way we kind of justify the result as you implement things like scheme architectures and all this work and effort is we're all kind of basically trying to deconstruct these AI algorithms. And they're trying to create the hurdle and make it higher and higher and higher for especially health related searches. Going, "We're going to create..." And they've come out and openly stated this. "If your content speaks about finance or health, we're putting the author of that content at a higher bar of standard to be an authority." So if you're continually being seen as the algorithm, as giving more traffic around health related searches; to me, that's the largest validation that your efforts are meeting that higher bar on standard.

Chris Hemphill:
Well, thank you Brian, for sharing that. And one thing we like to conclude with is just digging more into the reason that you're here and the reason you're having this conversation. Also, the reason you're having the conversation at HCIC, there's something that I would hope that people would be getting out of the conversation. So any final thoughts for the audience as we prepare to have our weekends and then start the next week?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. That we're all human at the end of the day, and that's really the end goal of this. And that's the metric that we try and look at, is... My favorite thing I do, within everything we do, is sitting down and interviewing patients. And it's what drove us here, was a misdiagnosed issue for a decade with my mother, that ultimately, if it was intervened earlier, she would've had a very different outcome. And the world with the internet, healthcare was a very different place 15 years ago. But access to information is always of the utmost priority. So for us, it's never ending. That's the fun. It's an infinite game; is that people search and this data will always evolve and always be growing. There is no one solution to this. And when you kind of lean back into the comfort of that, that's what makes it fun, is it's a never ending game.

Chris Hemphill:
I latched onto a little bit of what you said, particularly the we're all human part. Because I think what a lot of us are confronted with is, we might be overwhelmed by the number of services that we have to offer and the number of awards and different things to promote and discuss and talk about. But when we flip it from, how do we talk about our health system and our facilities to, how do we connect to people as human beings, then that seems like it... That message that you gave seems would just change the context of a lot of the types of communication and outreach that we do.

Bryan Cush:
Oh, hands down. Yeah. I mean from a qualitative and quantitative, there's just the lives touched is an easy way to look at. When we look at a little bit more of a black and white business conversation around if you're doing a service line growth or new market development, there's that brass tax side of it. But then certainly the qualitative side is making sure that your messaging and communication is in the language of the ultimate consumer that you're trying to interact with.

Chris Hemphill:
Well, excellent. And thank you for sharing. And Bridget, to answer your question, yes our recording is going to be available immediately. So as soon as this conversation ends, you'll be able to share the link out and rewatch and revisit. Plus, it's also streaming on YouTube. So we're really trying to replace Netflix here. I really enjoyed Squid Game, but I feel like healthcare discussions are better. So you can go on our Netflix channel and... No, on our YouTube channel, sorry, we don't have a Netflix channel. You can go on our YouTube channel, at Actium Health, and look at all of the conversations we've had in the past.

Chris Hemphill:
Additionally, we're also a podcast. So this conversation, if you follow the Hello Healthcare podcast, we kind of... Those are kind of more of a narrative story. The most recent episode that just came out is on AI's role in patient engagement. But that's another way to keep in touch with these conversations and kind of hear what folks like Bryan are saying. I wanted to finish out a little bit... Bryan, I really appreciate what you've shared today. And you can see Bryan at HCIC, coming up in a couple of weeks. He'll actually be doing a speech on healthcare... On driving authority in conversations and communications to healthcare. So I encourage everybody to go and check that one out. Bryan, for anybody that wants to continue this conversation and potentially wants to find you, what's the best way that people can get in touch?

Bryan Cush:
Yeah. I mean, the platform we're on. I love the community on LinkedIn. Yourself [inaudible 00:32:02], everyone so great. So I'm pretty active and accessible on LinkedIn. And then of course our company as well. So either channel to reach us out.

Chris Hemphill:
And before we close out, I just got to highlight two comments. Frank and Craig, "healthcare sometimes seems like squid games." I was really just thinking about that-

Bryan Cush:
I was saying we should save lives instead of kill them, so...

Chris Hemphill:
All right, well, hey everybody, we really appreciate you sticking with us in this conversation. I thought there was a lot of good information shared. Basically, it was a conversation around using data to humanize your efforts. So I hope that that's some good fuel going into the weekend, some good things to think about. And until we see you next time. So next week, Frank Jackson down there in the comments, he'll actually be joining us.

Chris Hemphill:
What we'll be discussing is actually the growth of Cigna healthcare into a data driven organization. So we have a former executive from Cigna. He'll be joining us. And what you'll be able to see from that... Learn from that conversation is, walking into an organization that really didn't have a data driven focus or consumer driven focus and what that, the steps that that transformation actually looked like. I've spoken with him. His name is Aaron Bigman. I spoke with him a little bit and I think that's going to be a blast, just kind of getting into; okay, so digital transformation, not just a concept, but here's the steps that it took and here's the resistance that we met along the way. So-

Bryan Cush:
Awesome, I'm looking forward to that.

Chris Hemphill:
All right. Well, I'll see you again next week, Bryan, in the comments and yeah, really happy to hang out with everybody this week.

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