Goodbye, Data Silos!

Webinar

Featuring

Ellkay

Description

Delivering consumers the access and experience they want is more than just a technology problem. It's a teams problem. Connecting cultures and aligning strategy is much more difficult than implementing and configuring technologies.


Marc Probst, CIO at ELLKAY and former CIO at Intermountain Healthcare, has a track record for breaking down the barriers preventing consumers from the easy interactions that they want.


Marc has an inspiring way of viewing IT as a service provider for patients rather than an isolated organization.


In this conversation, we'll dig deep on digital transformation, the types of experiences consumers want, and how to lead health systems to deliver.

Marc Probst

Marc Probst

CIO
ELLKAY

Ellkay

Chris Hemphill

VP, Applied AI & Growth
Actium Health

Michael Linnert

Michael Linnert

CEO and Founder
Actium Health

1

Transcript


Michael:
Hey, good morning, everybody. Sorry, we had some technical difficulties this morning. Chris, right now is trying to get us reconnected back up on LinkedIn. So hopefully we'll have that here in a moment, but in the meantime, Marc and I are here and focused and ready to get started. So today I know we have people coming in through Hello Healthcare through LinkedIn, through YouTube, whatever venue you're on. Welcome. I'm excited you're here and we're excited we've got Marc here this morning with Chris and I. The topic is data silos and how we break down data silos. But really that's Chris's words. If I put it in my words, it's how we use data better to serve patients, serve customers, how we use data to drive, not just care, but also health and customer experience. So, Marc, I know we had a false start a second ago on, on backgrounds. Do you mind doing the brief version of yours and then I'll do mine and then we can jump in.

Marc:
Yeah, sure. And thanks for having me here. And it's good to see you Mike and Chris. So a year ago I retired as the chief information officer of Intermountain Healthcare in Salt Lake City, where I was there about 17 years. Prior to that, I spent 23 years in professional services. I was a partner with Deloitte. I was a partner with Ernst and Young and kind of a passion of mine has been data. I don't know about silos, but it's kind of heartening to me, but data itself, I've spoken on it a lot. I'm an absolute believer. I probably can't get through a discussion like this without using the term standards a few times, because I'm a real believer in data standards and the power of that. But that's kind of my background, all of it, except for the first four years of my career have been in healthcare and technology.

Chris:
Really appreciate that. And I see people coming on, thank you for hanging with us during our technical difficulty. So again, thank you for the intro. Thanks, Marc. And I hope that gives some good background because we really want to get into it. But while we're getting into it, a big reason that we put this together, the data silos and everything like that... yeah, I'm not a fan of silos either. What we wanted to get out of this, especially for... I know that our audience has a mix of folks who are in IT, working on solving these problems. And then there are people who are more downstream at the service line level or the engagement and marketing outreach level that want to use the results of having those internet connected systems of understanding a complete perspective on patients. So this is a conversation. Marc, Mike tells me that Marc is a standing room only presenter at a HIMSS Conference.

Chris:
So if you were to be there and you could wave at him, but you couldn't get the chat time in. So our idea here by doing on LinkedIn live is that as we're talking, as Marc is sharing his stories and different experiences that he's had with the organization. If you have comments, if you have thoughts or stories that you want to share, please get those out to us because the idea is that this is a format that allows us to have a conversation. So getting started, Marc, you had mentioned having worked at Intermountain, there was a monumental career there. I've always been fascinated by how Intermountain has led in value-based care and kind of leading, not only in terms of technology, but in terms of the incentive structure around how care is delivered. I remember reading your retirement announcement and then a few days later seeing that you're moving on to ELLEKAY. I'm really curious, what got you focused on this next phase in your career?

Marc:
Wow. Well, first let me just say, if I'm standing room only at HIMSS, that's because they gave me the broom closet. I've had a long-term passion around the use of data and this is going to be a little longer answer probably Chris than you were looking for. But when I got to Intermountain Healthcare, I was a consultant and that was kind of my role. I advised people on technology and healthcare and didn't really understand the challenges associated with being a CEO or running a health system for that matter. But when I got there, I inherited a really interesting situation. And what had happened is Intermountain had spent, well at that time, about 30 years developing an information system called HELP and that sister system called HELP 2. HELP 2 is just a little more modern and was for the outpatient business, inpatient business and everything else was done on HELP. This system was designed with one priority in mind, and that was how can we use data to improve clinical care?

Marc:
It was designed by a guy named Homer Warner, who is a physician. And we got pictures of him with the old huge computers in the background and him running up and down stairwells with this huge pack on him, which would be a wearable today. But I guess it was a wearable then, but it was massive. His whole concept, his whole idea and passion, was how do we use data? So he began with the concept of data and keeping data standardized so that it could be computerized and put and used for better care for people.

Marc:
And so I inherited the situation around, look at the power of what we can do with data, whether that was advanced decision support, which is something we were really, really focused on so we could help clinical caregivers in that care process, not replace them, not have cookbook medicine, but actually facilitate what they were doing at a timely way through the process, whether that was ARDS or whether that was dealing with a cardiac issue or you name it, we had decision support protocols, but that was all made possible because it started with this focus and passion on data and how you could use data.

Marc:
Later on, we became pretty well-known, I guess, for the use of data through the electronic data warehouse, the clinical warehouse that was put together, they're one of the first in the industry, became very strong, very powerful. So I say all that because the focus was always on data and how do you integrate? So eventually we bought Sunquest instead of our home developed lab system, where we had to integrate that. We had to integrate it with the rest of the things we were doing so that we could get the data in and continue to do the things we wanted to do. Same thing in radiology, same thing pharmacy.

Marc:
There were a lot of new applications we ended up buying, but our passion and our focus was we're going to do that. We'll buy them, but we're going to integrate that data into something that's going to be usable so we can continue to do the things that would enhance our ability to care for patients. Well, because that was such a focus and a new focus actually for me when I arrived there, because again, I was just making money as a consultant, no offense to consultants, but that's what I was doing. And I learned how important data is and how much good it could do if, as an industry, we're able to do more with it.

Marc:
So naturally as time went on and we ultimately replaced HELP with Cerner and we continued this again, the same focus on data. We got involved with companies such as ELLKAY and ELLKAY their tagline is Data Plumbers. Our tagline is Data Plumbers. I'm still kind of back in Intermountain head mindset, whenever you have me have these conversations. So I could use weed and mean a lot of different things. I became involved with ELLKAY. We were a client of them and I just loved their focus on data and standardizing data and getting data that could be usable across different systems and across healthcare systems and across the industry and fell in love with the leaders there. And so when I decided it was time to retire, I thought yeah, these are people I'd like to work with. And so I joined ELLKAY.

Chris:
Marc, When you describe a 30 plus year passion in data, I know that I'm in the right room. I think this is going to be a good conversation. And that kind of leads me to think is data... I'm passionate about what we can actually do with data and the capabilities that are enabled. And that kind of leads to, I think, that passion probably has some perspective around what kind of experience it can enable for patients and consumers and other people who might be end users of that data. So just level setting for the audience, just to get a perspective here with all these loads of data, there is the possibility of using that to assist or inform areas of consumer care, health and the consumer experience. What would you say are the most important uses of data in your mind?

Marc:
Wow. And to try and prioritize that really is trying to get into the heads of people and what's most important to them. To a diabetic, having good information about glucose levels and how they're living their lives in the activity that they're involved in, that's the most important use of data. To somebody with heart disease, well, some of the data is the same, right? Their activity and those kinds of things, but then there's very specific data important to them. I remember giving a talk in one of those janitorial closets that Mike talked about, a few years ago, where I was... the statement I ultimately made because I was focused in that particular discussion around the standards and the value of standards in healthcare. And my point was, there's huge disparity around the world in providing health care.

Marc:
And a lot of that... there's a lot of reasons for that disparity, but if we could standardize data and understand data, we could share knowledge. So if we can now have data, that means the same thing in Kenya, as it means in India, as it means in China, as it means in the United States, then the knowledge that's starting to get created in each of these locations could be shared, because now it's meaningful in each of those different areas. And the point I got to in that particular talk was that there are literally hundreds of billions, if not trillions of dollars that could be saved and tens, if not hundreds of millions of lives that could be saved, if we could get to those standards and share that knowledge across the world. And then we could start to see some of those disparities go away. Because it's not necessarily the medical devices, although they're important, but it's really that knowledge that's going to save the lives. So it's a long way around your answer, Chris, but it's really dependent on the individual and what's most important to them or population, I guess. And what's most important to them.

Chris:
Yeah, it was literally around the world from the answer. And I like it. It brought a global perspective into it and Mike, I feel like you have some thoughts on this. Also, folks, apologies while we're dealing with these technical difficulties, I didn't get the proper chance to introduce Mike Linnert. So the reason why this is such a good pairing is that Mike, he founded SymphonyRM, he's the CEO and founded us in 2014, a few years ago, but he also has a big perspective that comes from other industries. So in telecom and other areas outside of healthcare that are really focused on advancing the consumer experience. Areas such as lifetime value for customers and things that haven't really permeated in healthcare, he's working on bringing that over to us. So with that, Mike, I just wanted to maybe get your thoughts on the same question on what's the importance, what's the application of... once we've gotten all these things connected, what can we do?

Michael:
Yeah. I thought Marc really said something powerful there. In addition to it depends on who the person is. It's also the metrics that you choose. And so one of the things that we started doing recently, we made one of our corporate OKRs Live Saved and Quality Adjusted Life Years, is added back to the communities of the partners that we work with, so our health system partners. That really does put a focus on, are we doing the right things by customers? And so for instance, I know Market Innermountain, one of the cool things that Intermountain is doing, is predicting people who may have kidney disease and not know it. What a great use of data to be able to reach out to people and say, hey, listen, we have a bunch of information about you, and based on what we know, we think you should really be aware kidney disease is a real risk for you. And by the way, we're so early, here's some easy things you can start doing to move yourself along and maybe prevent that from happening.

Michael:
And if we use the data the right way, we can also figure out how do we go engage that person in the way they want to be engaged. We know we can observe some people prefer to be engaged on the phone by a clinician. Some people actually prefer a digital journey. Give me a health risk assessment and kind of tell me how to help myself or show me where the right places, the right things to do to get care on. So I really liked when Marc's talked about saving lives and, and picking up the metrics that we're going to use to drive our data with. And the other thing you talked about is data doesn't live everywhere and to get a complete view of a patient, of a member, it involves everything from the data in the EMR about what you've done with our health system, the data that the payer knows about you, because their claims help them see things you did outside of our health system. And as we put up digital front doors, as we put in CRM systems, we can track your journey. And the things that you're doing and the ways that you like to interact.

Chris:
So Marc, I'm curious about digging into maybe some of the use cases or our ideas that we're talking about with these massively interconnected data systems. And one end point... granted in my role with data science and AI, we get really excited about the opportunity to start making these connections between data sets and things like that. But I'm curious what your perspectives are on AI in healthcare. When you're working on these interoperable use cases, is that something that's coming to mind, potentially the types of predictions and the types of AI enabled... types of use cases that might be coming from AI in these scenarios?

Marc:
Oh yeah. At Intermountain we started an innovation center. This is 10 years ago, maybe a little longer. And in that innovation center when we first started it, it was all about devices how could we get to the hospital room in the future and stuff. Pretty quickly, it came around to AI. And the things that we could do that we've dealt with Mike and his team around AI uses within our health plan and how we could do some of the predictive activities there and better serve our population within where we serve with Intermountain healthcare. But another thing that we... and it's not a very creative name and it's probably used by a lot of other people, but at the time I used the term Doctor Google, that could be Doctor Apple, that could be Doctor Facebook, LinkedIn, or whatever, wherever data resides, right?

Marc:
And the concept was... and I believe this is doable today. It's not really something we can do because of FDA and other things, but I believe that very quickly, much of what we do in our urgent care centers now, not trauma or anything like that, but the more common otitis media, or just the flu or those types of things, AI is going... the phone is going to become our primary care physician. And that's because we can integrate data from so many different things, whether it's the wearable that we have on whether it's our health record that we have on Epic or Cerner or wherever. And we can bring all that data together. And it's really a powerful tool because even our clinicians, even though they might have access to that, they don't bring it together. And they can't process it quite in the same way we can with these systems.

Marc:
So I think we've only begun to scratch the surface of what we can do with AI. I'm on the board of a company in Utah, and they're creating a wearable that essentially... well, it's a medical grade wearable that looks at the blood. Now this is going to kind of sound, so sorry. I hope it's not because I'm also invested in it, but it's using spectrometry to look at the blood and there's a whole bunch of things, but it's using AI, right? You really don't look at the blood and say, oh, there's glucose. You look at the blood and see what's happening to the blood. And then you determine, that's either a raised glucose or it's hydration, or it's hematocrits or whatever it might be that you're looking at. And so AI is becoming really important to all the things that we do. And it's only possible because we can bring so many data sources together to have that AI serve. Mike, you look like you got thought on that.

Michael:
I just wanted to ask you Marc it's what you described as changing medicine from being reactive... hey, we're going to wait for you to come to us the health system. And when you were here, we will use all the data we have to serve you, which is really powerful. But what you described is almost changing it to be proactive, which says we're going to start monitoring and watching and collecting data and reach out to you when we notice something right? To say, hey, before you even think you're sick or know you're sick or know you need us, we're proactively reaching out. That's a different mindset. Can you talk about what it takes to break down the silos and kind of the proactive part of health systems as you and I talked about. The marketing groups all have all these cool digital tools to do proactive outreach. If we could somehow harness those to drive health, in addition to getting new members that would be transformational, I think.

Marc:
Yeah. And what you're saying... I mean, how good is that for the patient and how good is that for the health system? I'm not talking Intermountain, I'm talking about the industry itself for everyone involved with health. I mean, just think as we acknowledge and as we become better at this, how many lives we can save and how much money we can save out a very taxed system. And when I started Intermountain and I saw Terry out there, he remembers helping Homer Warner... I actually knew Homer. He died about six years ago. And it was really a sad day but he was just as great as can be right up until the time that he died. But we had this clinical data because that's what Homer was positioned. And that's what you can collect at the time.

Marc:
Like you said, marketing's got access to all this metadata and social media data and all these other data sources that combined... And that's where a lot of the proactive work can be done. We can see someone has a proclivity toward diabetes but we can also then look at social media and say, hope you enjoyed that Whopper and milkshake. And maybe we can do more of that, but the whole idea of what we're doing clinically and what we're trying to do, I hate to use the term marketing, but that's where the activity is right. That we're doing the outreach and those kinds of things. And where we're bringing that data together the power is just amazing.

Michael:
So Marc, can I ask from a cultural point of view, how do you get... the medical group really is charged with taking care of patients and they do a phenomenal job. How do you get them to a place where they're comfortable being more proactive or trying to harness more data types? How do you show... because this is really about extending the office, not replacing it.

Marc:
Yeah. And this is my experience. In my experience, it was showing them the value of what we were doing. Like advanced decision support. I mean when we came out with decision support, it was kind of this from the physicians. We don't want that it's cookbook medicine. You're telling me how to do my job. And we had to do two things. One was show them, no, we are just giving you some guidelines, some edges that we want you to stay within and it'll help you. And we had to prove that to them, by staying within those guidelines, they were doing a better job. So we not only had to show them the data on how to improve their care. We had to show them that they were improving their care by using those tools and those guidelines.

Marc:
So I think extending that today to, well, okay, let us show you what we're doing with this data and together, how we're working together to improve the care that the patients that you have are getting. And physicians are two things. I mean, not all of them and I shouldn't use physicians, I should use clinicians, but clinicians are one, quite competitive. And so when they have data that they can see how they compare to their peers, that's really helpful to them. And the other thing that they are is they truly care about their patients. And again, when you show them that the things that they're doing, the things that we're doing together with data is actually improving the lives of the people that they deal with, yeah, hey come around pretty quickly.

Chris:
So one thing that you had mentioned earlier, and it's really... honestly, it's awesome that you share the focus that clinicians have on their individual patient relationships, because they're often the tightest to the patients, even more so than the behavioral nudges that we might send out, they have the true influence in that relationship. And I mean, my partner, she's a clinician and constantly talking to her about patient experiences and things like that. So the elements, the levers that you mentioned as far as gaining clinical buy-in are powerful. And I'm curious about, let's say on the marketing side of the house, there's all these engagement tools that marketing uses such as marketing automation systems, SMS alerts, and things like that, that are generating data. And of course, there's the clinical data that things like the glucose levels that you mentioned are things that help with identifying who has clinical needs.

Chris:
But when it comes to starting the strategy, starting down that path of using that data to start delivering on these end points, I'm really curious about, should this be a top down initiative or... how can people get started? Maybe if the organization hasn't fully committed into a full interoperability across all systems, should the focus be top down, or are there strategies, or more use case driven approaches where organizations can get started smaller?

Marc:
Yeah. Listen, leadership's still important. And that doesn't necessarily mean top-down, but leadership is still important in some of these... if you're dealing in a clinical situation, you're a clinician you're dealing on the hospital or in a clinic you're busy. It's not that you don't want to do these things. You're just busy. And so anything that's new, even if it's obviously good, it's still difficult to change your workflow or change the activities that you're doing. So I do think there is a top down in a visionary role to be played in what we're trying to do with data and AI and whatever it is within the healthcare. So I do think there is a top-down aspect of this. What's interesting though, is if you get the visionary, if you get the leadership, you start pushing these things, the people that are now seeing the benefits, they become very, very supportive. They become advocates for this. They become very excited about it. And then they can help go bottoms up and really start pushing new ideas, new things that can be done. But I think at the beginning, there is a leadership top-down responsibility. Any different thoughts on that?

Michael:
Yeah. Well, I was going to maybe take it a slight different, but the same general... Marc, talk about what do you think are the big drivers of kind of the corporate move to integrate more data? Because as you said, everybody's busy. It's putting something on someone's plate to integrate data, to use it differently, to be proactive. To drive digital, to even stand up a digital front door. And think, are we going to personalize the digital front door and people come in? What do you think are the big drivers of that? Is it value based care is going to push us that direction, because the incentives change? Is it competition is going to push us there because we don't want to lose? Is it old fashioned fee for service revenue is going to take us there because we can link it to financial performance? What do you see there?

Marc:
Well, all three of the examples that you just outlined are financially based, and clearly as the good sister said, no money, no mission. And that still drives a lot of our thinking. So I think from a corporate perspective and this isn't... I am not being judgemental here at all, because I do believe in no money, no mission. And if you can't sustain the system, it's going to fall apart. So, corporately, it is financial. And I do think value-based care is the thing that's kind of incentivizing those corporate leaders to go that direction maybe quicker than they were. Fee for service was pretty... it was a different kind of mechanism. And you made money because of fee for service, value-based care is putting new pressures on the system and saying, no, we want you to save money.

Marc:
And by the way, if you save money, if you keep people healthier, you're going to make more money. And that's a good thing. That's incentivizing the system correctly. So I think value-based care has a lot to do with it. If you're a clinician, if you're out of the corporate suite. Now they still care about money because of what I just outlined, but they also really, really are close to the patients and they want people to be better. And so that's the incentive there, but yeah, what's driving it, I think is value based care, population health, the most.

Michael:
Marc, let me push a little bit on the value based care and pop health. A lot of the implementations I've seen in the industry that try to go after helping with pop health value-based care are one form or another of generating big reports of people who have gaps in care, risk scoring, turning it into a heat map of opportunity and then several call lists. But they all end up falling, or often end up falling, to the primary care office. And here's some analytics on your patients go reach out to them. As you look at that is what could we be doing better to enable systems and primary care in particular to actually engage in a population health and value based care?

Marc:
Yeah, I think that maybe one of the fallacies is right. Your primary care physician can take care of you. Your primary care physician can help take care of you and can drive what that care looks like, but it's not a one and done deal. I mean the seven to ten minutes that the physician gets with you, isn't going to make all that difference. Chris, you talked about nudges and those kinds of things. I think we can partner with other organizations that focus on disease or focus on behavior change and those kinds of things. They're much lower cost than the clinical, the physicians and the clinical providers, like an Intermountain Healthcare. And I think it's that continual lifestyle and behavioral change and using data to be very timely and how we help people make decisions. That's going to make a bigger difference than sending that data to the primary care office and having them basically schedule another appointment because that's what they do.

Chris:
So I'm liking the direction of the conversation. I liked the part that we're thinking about how we're incentivizing, and we're also thinking about organizational incentives and how organizations can come together and work together. We are unfortunately a little bit past the time, just because technical difficulties, it started late, but I wanted to thank everybody who has stayed on overtime with us. We still have a couple more questions to go through. And one thing that I wanted to expos people to, especially with all the non-technical people who might be on the call, even technical leaders who might not be as versed on this, but when it comes to understanding kind of the end points and goals around interoperability, and as well how the sausage is made, how it's done, where should people go to learn more about this and understand it, and be able to work better with the people that are executing on this stuff?

Marc:
Well, I think that question is to you, Mike.

Michael:
Well, I'll give you a few thoughts. One is, I think you need to talk to experts like Marc and others who've implemented. I think consultants are great, but the one thing I do tell people, and I've said this in other industries, too, if you, if you hire a consultant to build something for you, and you're kind of reasoning through exactly what you need, be careful that you don't get exactly what you asked for because oftentimes there are industry standards that are a way for a reason. And I would say outside of healthcare, a lot of people use systems in exactly the same way. Inside of healthcare we tend to have different implementations at different health systems. And I think we really, really need to look hard at best practices and benefit from people like Marc, who've implemented seeing what worked and what didn't. So Marc, my advice is talk to experts like you. How about you?

Marc:
Well, yes, not me necessarily, but experts. Expertise is important. This is a very dynamic area. Integration, data standards that you would think standards didn't move around, but they do. And a plug for ELLKAY. I mean, that's what they do. And I believe that more and more organizations are going to begin to outsource some of those capabilities because they're so dynamic and healthcare, we can't afford to have these massive IT teams. I had a really big one at Intermountain. I was kind of lucky, but even that's starting to get smaller because we can't continue to invest as much in that space. So I think having access to expertise is the best place to go.

Michael:
Chris, the one thing I would add as we wrap up here, I would say if you're a health system and we're a consumer service, the number one asset that you have at your health system is your database of customer relationships. That is the biggest asset you have. It lives within your EMR. And if your goal is to drive value, delight, and loyalty, in addition to health for your patients, you need to be harnessing the data you have and you need to be proactively reaching out. And I can't stress that strongly enough. And I think going into the future, it's going to change from competitive advantage imperative to survive. And if you look around the best people are using data in unbelievably creative ways to serve their patients. And the venture guys are pouring hundreds of millions or billions of dollars into new healthcare startups that look and say, hey, these existing healthcare systems have low customer loyalty, we can steal the customers cheap, and we can drive down loss ratios by taking better care of them. And so that's who's coming after you.

Chris:
Thank you, Mike, for that additional detail, too. And I want to finish this with something that might get people to think about going into the weekend. We did this call on a Friday, hopefully over the weekend, you just come back and have completely transformed your organization, maybe. But the question that I have in mind Marc is, and I'll ask the same of you, Mike, as well, is when we're looking at all this stuff, like what is something that you wish more people knew about the data-driven consumer experience?

Marc:
What do I wish that they knew? How about if I just go with, I wish they could see the power of what we're talking about. I wish that they fully understood this... what I started with, this ubiquity of knowledge that could exist around the world and the lives that could be saved. I'm really passionate about how important data is in creating knowledge and how important that knowledge is for caring for people around the world. I don't think I answered your question, Chris, but you know, if you want a ponder something, ponder about how we can take this inequity away, if we just get smart about how we use data.

Chris:
And Mike, your turn.

Michael:
Yeah. I wish we could envision something a little different. Today in healthcare, we think about what goal we're trying to accomplish and therefore what people we should reach out to, to hit that goal. And financial services, I'll use an analogy, they stopped doing that years and years ago. What we need to start doing is the opposite. Instead of thinking about our goals and our products, we need to go think about our patients and start with each patient and pretend we're the wealth advisor for that patient, the health advisor. What is everything I know about you from what can make you healthy to what things are likely to do to what journey you're on? What does everything... and how do I build a plan that's customized to you and then go engage you in it. So again, can stop thinking the silos and the products and start thinking with the patients.

Michael:
And I have to tell you if, if someone called me tomorrow and said, hey, Mike, we over here at Acme Health have been thinking about you, and it's got a balance sheet and an income statement for your family and here's things you guys need to do. And here's appointments we have. And your son is a great match for our peanut allergy clinic. And your daughter needs her second Gardasil shot. And you know, the clinic's open anytime you want to swing by, that would be life-changing for me. And I think it would be life-changing for both the systems we serve, but also the communities they serve in terms of Lives Saved and Quality Adjusted Life Years added.

Chris:
Thank you, Mike, and I've got one too. It kind of bounces off something Marc said earlier, which was around knowing somebody's glucose level might have a potential life bettering or life saving effect. So there's two things. Both that Marc brought up is I wish more people knew and understood how connected and tight the clinician is with the patient and how much they care about patients specifically. And then on top of that, I wish that everybody within the organization kind of knew that managing this database, or making sure that this data set is accurate, or making sure that this data is collected the right way, has a potential life-saving impact. So I just wish more people knew their connection on the marketing side too.

Chris:
Mike, you brought up something really interesting before the conversation, but around the marketing relationship with the CMO and marketing's role in healthcare delivery, I just wish more people knew about that role and impact that they have on patient lives if you're working in healthcare. But with that, thank you. Thank you, Mike. Thank you, Marc, for coming on and joining, talking shop a little bit... lovely conversation, and I hope that's given a lot to think about going into the weekend and, and going ahead. Marc, if anybody wants to get in touch or reach out to you, what's the best way to get connected?

Marc:
Email's good. You want that?
Chris:
Sure.

Michael:
They can hit you through LinkedIn.

Marc:
Yeah, they can hit me through LinkedIn.

Michael:
Big fans will like that.

Marc:
Since that's the one that we're on.

Chris:
That's the way to do it then. So give Marc a follow. And at the same time, you will actually have something new for you to be able to follow next week. We're taking these conversations... we've had almost 60 of these conversations so far that go in depth on things like health equity, on AI's role in healthcare, on consumer experience, on healthcare directors. All these different things, we've gone super in-depth on these topics, but you haven't had a way to listen to it while you're in your car. So next week we're launching a podcast, Hello Healthcare, not available for download yet, but we'll be sure to let you know on all the channels around subscribing, if you want to be informed and keep an eye on when these conversations are happening next. Just go to our website, symphonyrm.com and sign up for our newsletter. It will keep you in the know on when folks like Marc and others are coming to hang out with us. And you so, appreciate that, and hope you have a great weekend.

Michael:
Thanks Chris. Thanks Marc.

Marc:
Bye now.

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