How to Listen to Your Patients

Webinar

Learn the basics of human centered design, how it might apply to your organization, and how you can get started.

Featuring

Henry Ford Health System

Description

Today, digital transformation must happen quickly. Consumers demand convenience and quality, and there are numerous virtual and competitive offerings the experience they want.


So, should healthcare leaders buy every digital solution possible? Probably not.


Human Centered Design means building your strategy and roadmap around your patients. Zain Ismail, Section Chief of Planning & Strategy at Henry Ford Health System, focuses on how to listen to patients and collect the right data for powerful strategic moves.


Along with leading incident command for COVID-19, Zain draws on significant experience from global healthcare projects and the innovation group, "Hacking Health."

Zain Ismail

Zain Ismail

Section Chief of Planning & Strategy
Henry Ford Health System

Henry Ford Health System

Chris Hemphill

VP, Applied AI & Growth
Actium Health

Jenn Misora

Jenn Misora

VP, Client Success Group
Actium Health

1

Transcript


Chris Hemphill:
Hello, healthcare. Hello, LinkedIn. Hello, YouTube. Hello, however you're consuming this, whether you're consuming it live or a little bit later. We are happy that you are joining with us to learn more about human-centered design. This is an extremely exciting topic because there is a growing array of technology products, including marketing technology, outreach, patient engagement, population health. But what's the context? You might have seen a lot of that at HIMSS this past week, too, and might be excited but trying to decide, "How do I make this meaningful for the people that I serve, the consumers and patients that we're seeking to engage with?" That's going to be a lot of the theme underpinning what we're talking about today around human-centered design.

Chris Hemphill:
So we're really excited to focus in on that, focus in on how to listen to your patients, understand their needs, and respond to those appropriately by guiding your strategy. And in order to do that, on the SymphonyRM side along with me, Jenn Misora, who was formerly at HCA but had the great decision to move over to SymphonyRM with us and carry on a mission. Jenn, want to say hello to the world?

Jenn Misora:
Sure. Thanks for having me, Chris. Really excited to be a part of this conversation. Chris knows that one of my missions is just to make sure that we're actually listening to our patients and making sure that we're communicating with them in the way they want to be communicated with. We are not our customer, in healthcare. We are all too close to it. We've been in it for too long. And so I'm thrilled about this discussion and really centering design around the people who need it most, so really excited to hear from our guest today.

Chris Hemphill:
Excellent. And more on our guest, Zain Ismail. You might have heard him before. He co-hosts an excellent podcast with Jared Johnson, the Healthcare Rap podcast. He asked me not to try to sing the theme song today, so I'm not.

Zain Ismail:
I don't rap. Only Jared does.

Chris Hemphill:
So, well, he carries on a mission of spreading the light, spreading this kind of wisdom within healthcare, too. And at the same time, base of operations, Henry Ford Health System, where he's led as a chief of planning, particularly with COVID-19 initiatives, and focuses on digital transformation strategy initiatives inside of the heath system and with other projects, as well. Zain, quick hello from you, too?

Zain Ismail:
Hey, Chris. Thanks for having me, and it's good to be here, Jenn. I'm really excited to have the conversation. I think the industry is ready for it. And with the advent of all these digital tools that you've been talking about, now, it's time, I think, just to get the overall philosophy out there so that system leaders and everyone in the middle can see the opportunity. And so I'm really excited about it. And post-COVID, I realize a thousand people have talked about that. I think we've realized that we need to bring real change into healthcare, and human-centered design and similar methods are ways to come up with very progressive solutions that actually meet the needs of our communities.

Chris Hemphill:
That's exciting to hear. And I want to just say that I've noticed a lot of new names, a lot of people that haven't been on this show in the past signed up. I just want to say welcome, everybody who's new. Find out, hey, where you're from, what are you interested in learning today? You can drop that in the comments. And just if you hear things that are interesting to you, or if somebody says something that triggers a question in your mind or relates to your experience, feel free to ask that question right here. Zain and Jenn are happy to handle these questions live. We have a little guide that we go through, but I prioritize the stuff that comes from you, so just let us know what you're thinking and let us know any questions that you have related to any kind of strategic challenges that you come up with-

Zain Ismail:
[crosstalk 00:03:52]-

Chris Hemphill:
... any roadblocks. What's that?

Zain Ismail:
I'm just going to defer to Jenn all the time.

Chris Hemphill:
There without go.

Zain Ismail:
Pass to Jenn.

Jenn Misora:
No way.

Chris Hemphill:
But I just want to let everybody know that this is open conversation and we're just going to jump on in with Zain, you shared a little bit about your background, but really curious about what you're doing at Henry Ford right now, or any other projects that you're working on?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. Yeah, so, my day job official title is principle transformation consultant, and our teams sort of serve as extra arms and legs to our executive teams to accomplish whatever needs done across the system. And so a lot of the work that I do is I call it a little bit future spacing and in white spaces, and so help the system think about things we've never really done before or that are emerging, that maybe we've done it in little pieces and we need to scale it up. And so in practice, it's a lot of our digital health work, supporting that, our community health work, and something I'm really passionate about, didn't know it until I started doing it, is a lot of our direct to employer work. And, of course, through COVID, we all got a second job and sort of stepped in to help the system respond to Southeast Michigan and all the needs here around vaccination and testing and COVID support.

Zain Ismail:
But one unique thing about me that I wanted to just share is prior to getting into healthcare, I was actually in the hospitality industry, and so I worked for the Hilton for a while. I worked in many restaurants. I almost have a completed degree in hospitality. And so sort of the art and science of making people feel welcome and hospitality and service is really important to me, and hopefully, that'll dovetail into some of the conversation we have today. And I want to give a shout out to James. I see him in the comment. It's good to see you, James.

Chris Hemphill:
I want to give a shout out to James, too. James [crosstalk 00:05:38]-

Zain Ismail:
James is everywhere.

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah. Guest on the show, yeah. Thanks for joining us, James. And shout out to Steve Wood, too, who is going to be very interested in hearing about metrics in measuring patients' perception with satisfaction. That's going to be a subject that we're going to delve into. So, Steve, good to see you again and thank you for bringing that up. Jenn, I'm going to put you on the spot, too. I'd like for the folks to hear a little bit about your background and your interests, too.

Jenn Misora:
Yeah. I'm actually really excited about that question from [Steven 00:06:08] because when we think about measuring patient satisfaction or what they really care about, we can do any number of things, right? We've talked a little bit in the past about your competitors aren't really stealing your patients from you, I promise. Your patients are not incentivized, usually, to leave to go to a competitor because they have a nicer facility or better marketing, as much as that hurts my heart as a marketer. Patients are really incentivized to stay with a system or with a location because of the care they're receiving.

Jenn Misora:
So Steven, when we talk about measuring patient perceptions and satisfaction, first of all, it's critical. We have to do that, and it can't just be the HCAHPS survey, right? That's just kind of the basics of an inpatient stay. We have to truly ask them, "What matters to you while you're here? How was your stay? What met your expectations and what didn't?" And what's really sad is a lot of times what we see is, "Well, people were nice to me. That made me really happy here." That should be a really basic foundation of what we're doing when we're in the care of other people.

Jenn Misora:
So how we measure patient perception, we can do surveys, we can do followup texting. We need to make it easy on the patient to give us that feedback and comfortable, but what matters more is that we're prepared to followup on it if they give us feedback that doesn't look so great. So that's really something I care a lot about, Chris, from my background, is ... Especially doing some of the consumer insights in market research, we listen and we ask, but then if we don't implement or do anything with it, then why did we ask in the first place? So we really want to make sure that we're taking what we're hearing from our patients and our consumers and putting that into practice.

Zain Ismail:
That's a great point.

Chris Hemphill:
So what we've just heard then is two big, overarching perspectives from people who are interested in the art and science of making people feel welcome, making people want to come back and experience these services. So, this question is for you, Zain, because we're talking about how to listen to your patients. The context of human-centered design. I think that this would be a good opportunity to level-set and really focus on what actually is human-centered design?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. Happy to explain it. So, human-centered design is, in my view, a very overarching term that can mean a lot of things to a lot of people, and so let me talk about it abstractly for a minute. So, essentially, what it is is it's a framework or a model to solve really complicated problems with the community in two. And so the first thing that is fundamental to human-centered design is that it focuses on optimism. And so people who practice this discipline believe that even the toughest problems can be solved. And so we already come to it from a perspective that we're about to change the world, which I think is needed in healthcare, right? Because things are so complicated, you can get discouraged really quickly.

Zain Ismail:
The second thing is centered around community, ultimately meaning that we also believe that the solutions can be ultimately found and harnessed from the people who bear the problem, right? And so hence the need to actually get in there and investigate, because it's not necessarily going to be us, the healthcare executive, telling our patients, "Here's your solution." I mean, obviously, if we're doing open heart surgery, sure. But in a broader context, we are going to find solutions by actually talking to the community and the people that we serve to understand what their real problem actually is.

Zain Ismail:
And then finally, the next big piece of human-centered design is really around sort of tinkering and testing. And what I mean by that is it involves a lot of experimentation and exploration. Both experimenting around what ... Or, sorry, exploring what the problem actually is and what all the dimensions of that problem are, and then also on the solution side, coming up with one solution. Maybe you'll find it doesn't work, so we do it again and again and again until we get to something that you could say has a product market fit.

Zain Ismail:
And so in a nutshell, that's what human-centered design is. And actually, [IDO 00:10:06], which is a consultancy out of California, has a fantastic human-centered design toolkit, or, sorry, field kit. It's pretty long, but it has tons and tons of resources available for free online, and so in encourage people to go get that thing, download it, read it. It's not super complicated concepts, but if I follow them, promise you, you'll come out with better solutions and, on the marketing side, more engaging content.

Chris Hemphill:
So when you pick up that document, just keep in mind that the toughest problems can be solved.

Zain Ismail:
Absolutely.

Chris Hemphill:
That's what really resonated.

Zain Ismail:
Absolutely.

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah. Without that as kind of your goalpost, then it's easy to get lost and feel defeated at how complicated everything is. But the toughest problems can be solved. And [Milena 00:10:49], hey, Milena, thank you, has dropped the link to the document that Zain referenced.

Zain Ismail:
Perfect. Thank you, Milena.

Chris Hemphill:
So, let's jump into the next question. So, a big reason that people are here is to learn what principles to focus on, how to actually guide the strategy. So, how do we listen to our patients? We have this overarching framework, so how do we actually apply that to listen to our patients? And are there any kind of stories that you can use, examples that can really make it clear on how to think through this stuff?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. Did you want me to answer, or is it Jenn's turn?

Chris Hemphill:
That's you, Zain.

Zain Ismail:
Okay. I'll answer. I think the first thing, in my mind, and I realize anyone that's on this livestream are probably already committed to it, but I need to say this: you need to commit that insights you gather through a qualitative analysis, which human-centered design is, are valid. And so there almost needs to be a cultural shift in your organization and strategy that what we glean from interviews, surveys, primary research, is as valid as what we would glean from finance or some data, numeric number, that we get from some analyst in the background. And so that's a big thing that I see a huge gap in healthcare is we accept the analysts' charts and their pie charts and god only knows what they do. But when someone comes in with insights or a recording of a patient and how they feel about care, we have a tendency to dismiss it. Even though, in my opinion, that's the richer insight. So, the first thing is you must commit that qualitative insights and the human-centered design process is a legitimate process for strategic planning. So that's one.

Zain Ismail:
The second thing, sort of diving deeper into this, is put rigor around the process. And so human-centered design, though it can be practiced by anyone as a layman, again, the concepts aren't terribly difficult to wrap your mind around, and a lot of align to things we already know in healthcare, like Lean Six Sigma, process improvement, a lot of things aren't terribly new. They just come around in a circle. That being said, though, you can actually hire or onboard onto your team, and maybe you already have them within your organization, true qualitative researchers who do this for a living. Design researchers, folks like that. And so even look at your FTE count and what roles you're bringing into your strategy team and say, "Hey, if we're really committed to this input, we probably need to hire someone that's expert in this field so that they can bring those insights in a way that's meaningful and understandable to the organization." And so those would be two big things I would say that is key that everyone needs to get ahold of right away if they plan on going down this path.

Chris Hemphill:
So with those two big things, honestly, I want to put the spotlight on Jenn for this one, because, look, a lot of our conversations are ... Well, that was kind of the introduction, around the insights that we learn from patients, learning how they actually do things. Do you have anything to add with regards to some of what Zain was sharing?

Jenn Misora:
Well, I wanted to put the praise hand emoji up while he was talking about they are valid, and that is so critical. If we're going to take the time to do the research and understand it, and I'm not an expert in market research by any means, but I love hearing from people what they're feeling and thinking. But if we're not actually going to use that, or we're going to say, "Well, that's not my experience, so that can't possibly be true." Then that's a huge problem for us. Because, again, most of us, all of us on this LinkedIn Live today or most of us who work in healthcare in a lot of ways have been there for a long time, and the way that we see the healthcare system, and we say, "Well, that's not true. It's X, Y, and Z." Well, that's 20 years of experience speaking to you and telling you that's how it works. Call a friend, call a parent, call a sibling, and say, "How would you handle this situation?" And I almost guarantee it's not going to be the same way one of us would with our knowledge and experience. So those insights in that qualitative research and listening to people, those ethnographic studies, are so important, but only if people are going to believe that what people say is real. There's no incentive, really, to lie, really.

Zain Ismail:
Yeah, right.

Jenn Misora:
We have to believe it's real, or we really just shouldn't do it. So, Zain, I just felt that.

Zain Ismail:
And so to add to Jenn's point, what I see happen a lot is human-centered design as theater. And so we just go through this, we have these interviews, we develop personas, visions of what our big categories of who are patients or health plan members are, then we out and solution, and then what you can do if you're smart is you go and find out what the solution actually ended up being, and you hold it up against the persona and you say, "Wait a minute, there's a disconnect here. What we ended up doing has no connection to the insights that we thought that we said we were going to do." And so that leads me to believe that a lot of organizations just do design and human-centered design as theater. And so in addition to committing to the insights, you have to hold to it through the entire process and constantly go back and validate and say, "Is the solution that we just came up with, does it align to that archetypal person that we're designing for? Yes or no?" If it's a no, you have to start again, or pivot.

Chris Hemphill:
And I wanted to bounce off of the praise hands emoji that Jenn was throwing up.

Zain Ismail:
Yes.

Chris Hemphill:
Jenn's not the only one who threw those up. [Janae Sharp 00:16:16], as well. Hello, Janae, and thanks for joining us and thanks for being on our show in the past, too. But patient insights are valid. That's a major point. I think that a lot of the way that data is collected, a lot of what people look at, they're scared of doing analytics on anything that's beyond numerical values. So anything that's not captured numerically gets ignored. There's actually a name for that. I dropped it down ... I'm hoping that people can take some little stat nerd terms today, but it's actually called the McNamara fallacy, where there is only a certain sphere of information that data is collecting, and the stuff that's ... Well, like there might be situations where it's too difficult or expensive or process-intensive to derive insights from things like free text data on how patients are leaving reviews, for example. But there's actually huge amounts of information that can help guide strategy within that context.

Chris Hemphill:
But, to kind of shift it more toward that qualitative approach, I mean, there are some methods that I've used in the past, but I'm really curious, Zain, in terms of the things that you were talking about. Collecting information qualitatively.

Zain Ismail:
Sure.

Chris Hemphill:
Insights? What are some ways that you've seen these approaches applied? And then I have a followup question on what you might have learned from it, too, but-

Zain Ismail:
Sure, sure. Well, first of all, let me say, going down the tangent that insights are valid, the process of human-centered design is laborsome. So as much time as finance people spend time analyzing, you can do the same thing on the qualitative side. So it's not like it's like a kindergarten exercise to do this if you're doing well, so I want to put that out there.

Zain Ismail:
One method we've used, or actually not necessarily here at Henry Ford Health System, but on some other pro bono work I do, I work with a team of service designers, and we've done some service design work actually in Kenya for a small rural community hospital north of Nairobi. And one model we use, which broadly [inaudible 00:18:24] called the NOABS framework. And I'll explain it in a minute, but the purpose of the project was to work with this rural community hospital as the country ... This was in 2018? I can't with pandemic days anymore. But the purpose of the project was to figure out what this hospital could do to ultimately develop patient and community engagement strategies as the country was rolling out universal health coverage. So all of a sudden, a whole bunch of folks in their community were going to get healthcare insurance, so therefore, what should they do to engage patients? And, at least in this context, hospitals compete for business.

Zain Ismail:
And so we worked with that team in Kenya remotely, which was a lot of fun, and what we started to do was leading them through a human-centered design process, we created an interview framework for them, a set of questions, and we started to work with them to actually interview members of their community to understand how they procure care, how they perceive care. We asked them questions about finance. We asked them questions about their family, how far they travel, all the things that you would expect.

Zain Ismail:
And then we organized all that qualitative information. We recorded the audio, and then our team back here in North America went through it and started to organize things in what we call a NOABS framework, which essentially stands for ... So the N means needs, and so when someone is speaking or when someone is talking about their experience, we call it, "This is a need." The next one is O, so objectives. So any goals or anything explicitly tangible in nature that they wanted to achieve. And then A stands for activities, and so activities that a person is doing. B is for breakdown, so anything through the experience that failed or through their life transition that failed, and then S is for solutions, which ultimately means potentially solutions that they created or that they found.

Zain Ismail:
And so what we did is we took all this audio and started to document what we were hearing and then organize it in this way, and that helped us analyze it to then go back to [Amarametti Plus 00:20:28], who was the client, and say, "Here are some potential recommendations." So that's just one of many ways to organize qualitative information and actually extract meaning from it.

Chris Hemphill:
So that leads me to another question. So, we're talking about the interview process. Would you be able to dial in on kind of an example of when that was used and maybe some insights that were learned from it?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. Sure. So, really interesting insight is we started to ask, and by we, I mean the local team, started to ask the community about their perceptions of this hospital as it related to them being a high-cost provider or a low-cost provider. So this was really interesting, and it blew my mind, especially coming from the North American context, which you also can't forget in this whole process is think about your privilege and where you're coming from versus the investigation you're doing. And so this hospital is actually very North American in the sense it's very clean, very well-branded, very well-constructed. But it's actually a low-cost provider in the community. When we did the research, we discovered that people weren't coming to the hospital because they kept their cleanliness standards so high and their branding standards so high they just assumed it was high-cost like the actual high-cost providers in the community. And so to me, that was really interesting.

Zain Ismail:
And so we ended up working or trying to come up with solutions for the client to say, "Hey, you should keep a high cleanliness standard. This is healthcare. You should keep a high brand and experience and looks standard. This is healthcare. But how might we come up with solutions that can communicate to the community that despite those things, you're actually a low-cost provider, and they can get great quality care here?" And so that was a really interesting insight that you would never know unless you talked to people. And then, of course, coming from the North American perspective, we were completely blindsided by that when we discovered it in the research.

Chris Hemphill:
So while you were explaining that, we got a question from [Jasmine McClain 00:22:35], appreciate you reaching out, which is basically on where there might be some additional learning resources on the NOAB framework?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. Maybe I can do it through [inaudible 00:22:46]. I'm happy to share our work. I mean, it's public. It's not published anywhere right now, but I'm happy to send out a file and maybe we can find a place for it.

Chris Hemphill:
Okay, perfect. Yeah, send that over and we'll find a way to get that out. So, appreciate that, and Jasmine, again, thank you for asking that.

Chris Hemphill:
So, Zain, you outlined this NOAB framework. Jenn, with your extensive background in market research and the learnings from these qualitative aspects, I'm curious if there is anything that you might have that kind of relates to that question, too, around garnering qualitative insights.

Jenn Misora:
Yeah. So, one of my favorite things to do is focus groups. But what I've learned is don't focus on the person who's speaking when you're asking the question. Focus on the side conversations, because that's where the really interesting information is. I can say, "Hey, Zain, how would you feel about a purple table in the hospital cafeteria?" And Zain might be talking to me about that, but then there might be two people over here who are having a sidebar conversation, and that's where the magic is, because something that you've asked has triggered something in their brain to talk about something else, and they kind of want to have this little sidebar that maybe they're not comfortable saying to the whole group, and that's always something I find really interesting with focus groups.

Jenn Misora:
And then kind of an insight, along with what Zain was saying that I found that was interesting, kind of those perception things, similarly in line. There is a lot of talk about sponsorships in healthcare, right? We want to sponsor this professional sports team or local team or this or that event. And what a lot of health systems might think is that sponsorship of a Major League Baseball team or an NBA team or something like that is really prestigious, and I'm not saying that it's not, of course, but what consumers think when they see a health system sponsoring a professional sports team is expensive. They must have a lot of money if they can sponsor a professional sports team. So that's kind of the bad side, because it may or may not be true. On the good side, they think, "Better care." So if that sports team is willing to let them sponsor, they must be a pretty good health system. Their doctors probably work with those athletes. And we all know that may or may not be true, so kind of an interesting perception there. Yeah. Sponsorship of a professional sports team means they're really expensive, but they're probably really good.

Jenn Misora:
And so just kind of those interesting things that come out when you listen to people and you think, "That wasn't actually what we thought at all." So just really, really going back to what Zain said earlier, we have to listen. And we have to listen to what these people are saying to us, and our patients and our consumers, and then we have to believe it, and we have to act on it.

Chris Hemphill:
So, again, highlighting from Janae Sharp, "We have to listen and we have to know that we truly are listening, because we might be listening to some perspective that somebody is giving out just because that's what the temperature is in the room, but I really love that focus on trying to find other ways to get down to the truth of what other people are thinking." And it kind of leads into kind of the flip side of this conversation, which is that there is a couple things that you mentioned earlier. You mentioned human-centered design as theater. We got into kind of the fallacies of missing out on what people might be truly expressing in a focus group. So, let's talk about pitfalls. Zain, are there things that can go wrong if leaders aren't careful with how they're doing their listening to patients?

Zain Ismail:
Absolutely. So the first one is having wrong expectation about the process. And so one thing I'll say is that human-centered design done well is not linear. And so in healthcare, we love linear processes. We love care plans. We love the standard of care. It's if this, then that. Human-centered design is more like an exploration where we're going on a journey towards we think this, but if we have to take a turn to the left or the right, we're going to do it. And so it's not really about going to a specific destination that we've identified at the beginning. It's more about generally going in a direction maybe across the ocean, and maybe we'll land in America, maybe we'll land in Cuba. Whatever, wherever we find based on the insights. And so getting your expectation right out of the beginning, or not getting it, is a huge pitfall that I've seen happen that it usually causes projects to go haywire.

Zain Ismail:
The other big thing, too, is being to prescriptive in your investigations. When you're doing research, asking terrible questions that are leading that don't really get at an insight, they just sort of validate your bias or what you're trying to push, which is only going to waste your time. You won't ultimately develop a product or service or a high-quality engagement or marketing engagement.

Zain Ismail:
And then probably the biggest thing people need to watch out for is as you're doing your research that you make sure you're not only testing for usability. And so, for example, if we're doing a focus group on does this app work, and I see that happen all the time, where people say, "Do you like the color? Is it functionally working? Is it easy to click through?" Well, that's one piece. But the bigger piece to test for is motivation. Will people actually use it? And I see Jenn nodding her head. I've seen fantastically designed software and products, even services, but nobody uses them because we're not designed first to test for motivation, then test for usability, whatever the product or service is.

Zain Ismail:
So those are the three things I'd watch out for. Being too prescriptive, test for motivation and usability, and set your expectations.

Jenn Misora:
Zain, I love that comment on motivation. I think Google calls it the toothbrush test, which is, will you use it twice a day or more? And if not, you're probably wasting your time building this great app that somebody is going to use once every six months. And so really thinking about motivation to use. I know it's really fun to have an app and really flashy, but a lot of the research says consumers just want to use what they're already using, so find a way to integrate into their lives and their digital ecosystem where they already are. If we start creating separate apps for everything, which a lot of people want. They think that's really cool, especially in IT departments, it may not actually be what that consumer wants. There's no motivation to use it. So I love that you brought that up, too.

Chris Hemphill:
Folks, we're at 30 minutes, and I know that that's what's on everybody's calendars, but we have a little bit more time on ours, and it seems like that questions are still flowing. We just got a really good one from Jared Johnson, actually, your co-host and partner on Healthcare Rap.

Zain Ismail:
[crosstalk 00:29:28] Jared.

Chris Hemphill:
This is a really good question, though, because we're talking about doing this research correctly. Perhaps leaders have been exposed to research that wasn't actually grounded in truth and then lose faith in it. Or perhaps people just don't have a proper understanding of what to do with qualitative data. So, really curious about how do we make this happen within our organizations? How do we communicate that this is a valuable path?

Zain Ismail:
Sure. I mean, maybe I'll take first stab at the question. And this isn't my answer. This is something I learned from a good service design friend of mine. His name's [Elliot Worthem 00:30:04]. He's a designer now at Sutter Health in California. And what he has done, and at least what he has taught me and showed me, is make things visual. And I've personally found, working with executives, that that happens. And so you might need to partner with your creative services team or even a videography team internally and say, "How do I take these qualitative insights and information and turn it into a video vignette?" Or get an illustrator and illustrate what has been said and what could be. And I find that that information becomes more palatable to people upstairs as opposed to just seeing text comments, right? And the best thing you can do is, if they agree to, videotape the person giving the insights. Because it's hard for the CEO to look at Mrs. Smith on the screen and say, "Well, she doesn't know what she's talking about." Right? So remember that this is an emotional game, especially when we're trying to get executives to buy in. It's really not about what the facts are. It's about sales internally, and building that emotional snowball to get the organization to commit into these insights that we're trying to do. And I think being visual is the way to do that.

Chris Hemphill:
Jenn, you have any thoughts on it?

Jenn Misora:
I agree completely, and I would add, connect it back to the business. So, usually, qualitative research for ... It usually ties back to business results that you're seeing, so if you've got a bunch of markets out there and you start to hear sort of the same thing in three or four markets, go back and see how that's affecting business. Go back and see if growth is the same there, service line satisfaction, what that looks like. What do our HCAHP scores say? What do our appointments look like? Are our physicians happy? And you'll almost always find ... I wouldn't say in 100% of cases, but 99% of cases, you will find those qualitative research insights tied to business results. And I've found that that's a really good way of showing senior leaders that this matters. We're seeing that what people are saying is correlated to the business results that we're seeing, and this is why we have to care about it.

Chris Hemphill:
There's another dimension, too. I think that making it visual and connecting it back to business are important dimensions, and I just wanted to share that HMPS, a couple years ago, saw a presentation from Nancy Duarte on data storytelling, and it was fantastic. She leads one of the firms that does all the presentations for a lot of the TED talks that you see, and it really ... If you're looking for some more weekend reading, I keep dropping books down there, but Data Story by Nancy Duarte is a great way to start looking at, hey, we've developed these insights. We've done this research. How do we make it palatable and valuable to the decision makers? Great book for that.

Chris Hemphill:
So, we've actually covered the gamut on a lot of things. Within 33 minutes, we've covered a lot of ground. And I think that this is a good nexus, a good point for people to find out where they want to go, choose your own adventure, choose your path, learn more about this. Where would you say that leaders should go to learn more about this stuff? And even [inaudible 00:33:14] what are some key points that you think leaders should learn and start researching on this stuff?

Zain Ismail:
I mean, for me, I'd reference back to IDO's human-centered design field book or toolkit, field kit, something like that. And I would just say take a few minutes to learn how to be a good interviewer. I think Chris, you're a great interviewer. And how to develop great questions that can spark thought and insight. If you can do that, I mean, it's going to benefit you not just in human-centered design but also in the rest of your life, and at networking gigs, as well.

Jenn Misora:
Yeah, and I would say you run a quick Google search even, something for somebody who just doesn't even know where to get started but they want to learn more. Google healthcare consumerism. Google patient insights, patient surveys. All of the big consulting firms, all of the major healthcare companies and lots of CRM providers and things out there, there are major studies you can go look at. Usu they have great infographics along with them. We just published one, I know, around kind of patients and communications with their physicians during COVID. There are so many places you can just get this information, and it's so interesting, but to the point Zain made earlier, you have to care. It really only matters if you read it if you care about what people have to say and applying that to making things better.

Chris Hemphill:
So, Zain, and Jenn, I wanted to say I really appreciate you sharing these insights and that there's a ton that I hope the audience has learned. There's a lot of really direct, kind of actionable stuff that you've shared here. And I'm really curious, there's a reason that brought you on stage with us today, and it wasn't duress, I hope. So, just curious, just overall, overarching, what were you hoping that people would get out of this? What are some final thoughts that you would share just related to this human-centered design concept?

Zain Ismail:
Yeah, I think, for me, it's just broadly the idea that through innovation methods and human design methods, we can build systems for health and wellness that are community and citizen-centric and that are built on evidence and not ego. And by evidence, I don't just mean, like I said earlier, your financial evidence, your typical strategic planning, SG2 data, but I mean the evidence that comes from our patients and health plan members. We can do it, and we will get there, and it's all of us listening, it's our opportunity to integrate these things to actually built the systems that people want.

Chris Hemphill:
And Jenn, we talked a little bit about your mission a little bit earlier. In the same vein, what would you like for people to come away with?

Jenn Misora:
Really just the theme that's run throughout this conversation around just really listening to people and what they need to receive care, because their lives are literally at stake, and if they can't receive care and it's not easy for them, then they won't. And this is a literal matter of life and death. This is not, "What topping do I want on my pizza and making sure our website's great for ordering pizza." This is literally people's lives, and we have to care about making sure that people want to receive care, have access to the care they need, and that we listen to them about what would make them more likely to receive that care, because we want people to live long, healthy, happy lives. This is an incredibly big responsibility for healthcare and we have to take it really seriously.

Zain Ismail:
If I can, I would just add to what Jenn says and say as healthcare leaders, it's not just that we have to, we actually have the duty. And the reason is because even in for-profit systems, a lot of us are actually subsidized by taxpayers, whether you realize it or not. And so we have a double duty, not just to the people who pay through commercial insurance, but because we're also taking the tax dollars from many Americans. We have a duty to deliver on the resources that have been entrusted to us to deliver something to the country that they actually want and need.

Chris Hemphill:
And I'll share a thought, too, taking it back to that human-centered design concept, what area in our economy is more focused on the human experience than healthcare. Netflix is focused on getting you to watch a video as long as possible. Google is focused on getting you to click as many things. But what you're impacting is how people make decisions that impact their lives in a tremendous way. And that can be daunting, and I know everybody's working hard to find these solutions and find evidence-based approaches, but also deal with organizational strangleholds and things like that. So goes really back to something that you said earlier is that, hey, the toughest problems are still solvable, so.

Zain Ismail:
Absolutely.

Chris Hemphill:
Yeah. Hope that we can just have that in our minds. Well, appreciate that. Appreciate everybody hopping on. Thank you to the folks that have even stayed nine minutes past that half-hour mark. That shows that you really care about human-centered design, so I really believe in you.

Chris Hemphill:
So keep an eye out for a couple of things. Next week, we're going to be releasing episode number two of the Hello Healthcare podcast, so that takes conversations like these and combines them to go really deep into particular subjects in healthcare. Last week, our release was on healthcare inequity. So you can go to HelloHealthcare.com and find that. Next week, we'll be focusing on the role of the marketer within the care delivery process. So look forward to that coming out on Wednesday. The next day, on Thursday, we're going to be talking about ... We're going to have Dr. [Daniel McCarthy 00:39:05] from [Emory 00:39:06] University, who actually leads ... And [Theta CLV 00:39:10]. He leads a lot of the research, a lot of the leading thinking around customer lifetime value approaches that are being used in industry in places like Etsy and Amazon, Shopify, large shops like that. We'll be talking about customer lifetime value and how it relates within a healthcare context. So, stay tuned and hope you have a great weekend and some good thoughts going into it.

Zain Ismail:
Thanks for having us.

Jenn Misora:
[crosstalk 00:39:37].

Chris Hemphill:
Appreciate you.

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